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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Looking for marriage |
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| chz |
| 06/30/05 at 15:41:07 |
| What is a guy allowed to see when he is looking at a girl for marriage. I've heard different opinions on this matter but don't quite know the reasoning? If anyone has useful information do pass it my way :) |
| Differences of thought |
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| Kathy |
| 06/30/05 at 22:46:00 |
| [slm] In my opinion, if someone adds anything other than face and hands, I would find it suspect. |
| hair |
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| chz |
| 07/01/05 at 09:42:20 |
| what about hair? |
| hm |
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| jannah |
| 07/01/05 at 10:21:45 |
| slm, why do u want to look at hair so bad? just have someone female in your family meet her and see her normally and of course you meet her with hijab etc and you should be all set |
| looking |
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| se7en |
| 07/01/05 at 15:28:29 |
| as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah, there are a number of different opinions on this matter. Do you subscribe to a particular school of thought br. chz? The jumhoor opinion [the opinion of the majority of the scholars, and therefore the safest opinion] is that a man is only allowed to see the face and hands of his prospective spouse. there are other, valid opinions that state that there is more a person can see. For example, the Hanafi's say you can also see her feet :) The Hambali's say you can see what is normally seen of her during daily activity (including her hair) and the Dhaahiri school even says that you can see everything! Of course, we shouldn't pick our school of thought according to which opinion we like best, so that is something to keep in mind. Imam Malik was of the opinion that you must seek the permission of the sister before looking at her.. and that you can't do it in a secretive manner. The other schools teach that it is permitted to look at her without telling her, so that if you are not attracted to her for some reason, you don't have to embarass her or hurt her feelings by telling her so. When I learned about the different opinions regarding this issue (in AlMaghrib Institute's Fiqh of Love seminar) the shaykh went to great lengths to emphasize that whatever looking that is done has to be done respectfully and honorably; and only as much as is needed for the person to know if they find the person suitable for a spouse. so.. you can't just look and look and keep on looking like this: :o :) the shaykh also strongly suggested the idea of having a female member of your family go and 'check out' the girl.. that way, there is no chance of falling into something that might be reprehensible, and they can really give a better assessment because they can look more fully. salaam, 7 |
| 07/01/05 at 15:38:40 |
| se7en |
| ..- |
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| bhaloo |
| 07/02/05 at 08:13:57 |
| [slm] http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=63558 Topic Of Fatwa Question of Fatwa Respected scholars, As-Salamu `Alaykum wa Rahmatullah wa Barakatuh. Now, I am thinking of marriage and getting engaged. Some people told me that Islam gives free rein to man to look at the prospective spouse. In fact, I doubt the authenticity of this saying. So, please clarify the Islamic stance on this serious issue. Jazakum Allah Khayran. Name of Mufti A Group of Islamic Researchers Content of Reply Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh. In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger. Brother, may Allah bless your efforts and grant you a righteous wife! Your question, in fact, shows the fact that you enjoy deep-rooted faith in Allah and care about the Islamic teachings. Marriage in Islam is a solemn contract through which Islam lays down rules and regulations that should be adhered to in order to render it valid and to serve as a means of creating loving and peaceful nest for the couple and their future generation. Though, prior to marriage contract, Islam recommends that man/woman should look at the prospective spouse, by no means does it give free rein to men and women to look freely at each other. Rather, it sets rules and code of ethics that govern this aspect. Here, we'd like to cite the following quotation from the course "Family Law I" offered by the American Open University: "There are many hadiths that urge the prospective spouse to get a look at the other before undertaking the marriage. Once a Companion told the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) that he was going to get married. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) asked if he had seen her. When the man said 'no', he (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Go and look at her for it is more likely to engender love between the two of you." (Reported by Ahmad and others and classed as sahih or authentic) Moreover, he (peace and blessings be upon him) said in another hadith: "If one of you proposes to a woman and if he is able to look at that which motivates him to marry her, let him do so." (Reported by Abu Dawud & others) It is noteworthy that this hadith does not abrogate the limits of what a woman may expose to non-maharim (marriageable men). She must continue to be well covered except for her face and hands in front of all of them and the prospective husband, even after making marriage proposal, is no exception to this. The difference is that he is allowed to take a good look – if it were not for the proposal of marriage, both would be required to avert their eyes after the first glance. As the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said to `Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) about the issue of looking at a non-mahram woman: "The first is for you, the second is against you." Also, it is clear that the purpose of this look is very specific: to help one gain assurance of the possibility of marrying the person in question. Once that has been determined and the decision has been made, it is no longer permissible for them to look at each other. If a man and a woman decide that they want to marry each other, this does not make it permissible for them to continue seeing each other. This is because until the moment the offer and acceptance of the marriage have been pronounced, there is no relationship of any kind between them and all of the laws regarding strange men and women still apply to them. There are a number of important points pertaining to this issue: 1. Some scholars say that looking at the prospective spouse is Sunnah (i.e., recommended by the Prophet) while others say that it is simply permissible. The above-mentioned hadiths would seem to favor the first point of view. 2. It can only be done if the person actually intends to marry the person in question and there is a real possibility of such marriage taking place. Otherwise, such a look remains unlawful. 3. It cannot take place in private. In other words, it is not allowed for a man and a woman who are not married – even if they are "engaged" – to be alone together. 4. The look can occur more than once – if, and only if, the objective has not been accomplished. 5. There are several opinions about how much of the woman is lawful to be seen in this context as follows: a) He can see what anyone else can see, i.e., he can look at her when she wears the proper outdoor dress of a Muslim woman. This is the mainstream opinion, the safest one and the one which agrees with all of the evidence. b) One opinion among the Hanbali school of Fiqh says that he can see her in normal indoor (around only her family) dress which would include the exposing of her neck, arms, lower legs, etc. c) One bizarre and off-the-wall opinion from the Zahiri (literalist) School of thought says that he may view her entire body. Although they have linguistic arguments to extract this from the hadith, this practice is completely unfounded since it contradicts many verses of Qur'an and other hadiths and is not supported by any known practice of the Companions or the first few generations. 6. The scholars recommend that this look take place when one has intended a proposal but the actual proposal has not occurred yet. Although the apparent sense of the mentioned hadiths seems to indicate otherwise, this is regarded as better in order to avoid hurting the woman's feelings if the man changes his mind afterwards. 7. The majority of scholars say that her foreknowledge or permission is not needed – especially since he is merely seeing her in public and in a way that anyone else can see her. The Maliki school of Fiqh says that it is disliked to look at her when she is unaware since evil men may use this as an excuse to look at women all the time and when told to stop would say "We are thinking of proposing to one of them." Women Looking at a Prospective Husband The woman also has a right to look at her prospective husband. Some have even said that it is more important for the woman to see the man. This is because the man holds the right of instant and unconditional divorce in case he is displeased with his wife. It is not so easy for the woman to get out of a marriage and so she must have priority in this issue." Excerpted, with slight modifications, from: http://www.java-man.com/Pages/Marriage/Marriage04.html |
| RE |
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| siddiqui |
| 07/04/05 at 10:08:11 |
[wlm] [quote]This is because the man holds the right of instant and unconditional divorce in case he is displeased with his wife. [/quote]. There is a lot of debate on the instant part [ some argue it takes a mere three words others say its a long process] could you please elaborate unconditional vs conditional [wlm] |
| thx |
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| chz |
| 07/06/05 at 09:11:12 |
| thanks :) |
| keep a subject its annoying |
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| a_Silver_Rose |
| 07/13/05 at 02:52:03 |
| well what if she has orange hair hehhahahahahhahahaha ok bye |
| Re: Looking for marriage |
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| Siham |
| 11/02/05 at 20:40:16 |
| Right to Divorce (Khul... Initiated by the Woman) Quran Sűrah An Nisa 4:128 "If a woman fears ill-treatment or desertion on the part of the husband, it shall be no offense to seek mutual agreement (to separate); for agreement is better (than strife). Man is prone to avarice but if you do what is right.... God will know." Sűrah Al-Baqarah 2. 230 ‘And women have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable.’ Sűrah Al-Baqarah 2. 229 ‘There is no blame on either of them if she gives something up for her freedom.’ Sűrah Al-Baqarah 2. 231 ‘Do not retain them against their will in order to hurt…’ Sűrah Al-Baqarah 2:241 "Reasonable provision should be made for the divorced woman. This is incumbent on righteous men" Sűrah An Nisa 4:19 ‘It is not lawful for you to try to hold your wives against their will, and neither shall you keep them under constraint with a view to taking away anything of what you may have given them, unless it be that they have become guilty of immoral conduct in an obvious manner. Consort with wives in goodly manner; for if you dislike them, it may well be that you dislike something which God might yet make a source of abundant good.’ Sűrah An Nisa 4.20 ‘But if you desire to give up a wife and to take another in her stead, do not take away anything of what you have given the first one, however much it may have been. Would you, perchance take it away by slandering her and thus committing a manifest sin.’ Sűrah An Nisa 4:35 "If you fear a breach between a man and his wife, appoint an arbiter from his side and one from hers. If they wish to be reconciled, Allah will bring them together again." Another check is the compulsory waiting period of three lunar months. Many a reconciliation is known to have taken place during this period because the wife is to stay in the husband's home in the waiting period; human nature being what it is, it is difficult to live in close proximity with the woman who was once a wife and yet hold on to the resolve of the divorce, unless the issue is really serious. The Islamic code is a marvelous blend of fair play and pragmatism. A provision which virtually eliminates the possibility of a crooked divorce, being used only as a ruse to humble the wife. If a man wishes to remarry his divorced wife, he can do so, the law says; but only after she has married someone else and has had marital relations with him: This condition puts the male ego under such a severe strain that no one play-acts a divorce scene. Ahadith about Khul (paraphrased) Ibn Abbas narrated that the wife of Thabit ibn Qais went to the Prophet (saaw) and said that she did not reproach Thabit in respect of character or religion, but does not want to be guilty of infidelity regarding Islam. The Prophet asked her if she would return his garden, when she agreed, he asked Thabit to make a declaration of divorce. (Bukhari) Barirah’s husband Mughith loved her but she did not love him. The Prophet (saaw) asked her to return to him. She asked him if he was ordering her to do so. When he said that it was not an order, she refused to return to him, as she did not need him, and the Prophet (saaw) asked the husband to accept the divorce. (Bukhari) Jamilah bint Ubaiy ibn Salul went to the Prophet (saaw) and said that she did not dislike her husband for any fault in his character or ‘deen’, but disliked his ugliness. The Prophet (saaw) asked her to return his gift and asked the husband to accept the divorce. (Bukhari) Habibah bint Sahl al-Ansariah went to the Prophet (saaw) and said she did not want to live with her husband. He asked her to return whatever he had given her and asked the husband to accept the divorce. (Malik and Abu Dawood) A woman brought her case to Caliph Umar (raa), he ordered her to stay with her husband, she refused. He locked her in a filthy room for 3 days. After 3 days he asked her if she would return to her husband, she refused again saying that she had known peace for only these 3 days. On hearing this he asked her husband to accept the divorce. (Kashf al Ghummah) Rubbaiyi bint Mu’awwidh inb Afra’ tried to get khul from her husband in exchange for all her wealth, but he did not agree. The case was brought before Caliph Uthman (raa) and he ordered him to leave her. (Fath al Bari… Abdur Razzaq) Note: Men cannot ask women to give this right up as a condition of nikah. |
| Re: Looking for marriage |
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| buL-buL |
| 11/05/05 at 07:11:41 |
| [slm] I thought the mahr was a woman's right. Why is it that the Prophet [saw] ordered these women to give back their gifts in the above ahadeeth? |
| 11/09/05 at 11:45:09 |
| buL-buL |
| Re: Looking for marriage |
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| timbuktu |
| 11/05/05 at 12:50:39 |
| [slm] [quote]I thought the mahr was a woman's right. Why is it that the Prophet order these women to give back their gifts in the above ahadeeth?[/quote] [quote]Jamilah bint Ubaiy ibn Salul went to the Prophet (saaw) and said that she did not dislike her husband for any fault in his character or ‘deen’, but disliked his ugliness. The Prophet (saaw) asked her to return his gift and asked the husband to accept the divorce. (Bukhari) Habibah bint Sahl al-Ansariah went to the Prophet (saaw) and said she did not want to live with her husband. He asked her to return whatever he had given her and asked the husband to accept the divorce. (Malik and Abu Dawood)[/quote] The nikah is only valid when both groom and the bride agree to the terms of the contract. Obviously both brides here had accepted their nikahs in the first place and also accepted the gift or mehr. Now if they wat release from the nikah, they are using the right of "khul`a" for which these Ahadith provide a condition that gifts must be returned. Perhaps we have read of cases whereby some unscrupulous make it a habit of contracting marriage and disappearing soon after that with whatever they can lay their hands on. If khul`a did not include this clause of "retuning", some women might find it profitable to marry, collect the mehr and the gifts, and be free from the restrictions of marriage. |
| 11/05/05 at 22:14:50 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Looking for marriage |
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| Siham |
| 11/05/05 at 13:44:38 |
| [quote author=malika link=board=bro;num=1120227900;start=10#10 date=11/05/05 at 07:11:41] I thought the mahr was a woman's right. Why is it that the Prophet [saw] order these women to give back their gifts in the above ahadeeth? [/quote] The Khul divorce is so that the woman is the one who's seeking the divorce and the [i]condition[/i] is that she has to give the mahr back to the man and vice versa if the man is seeking divorce he has to give her, her mahr as well and so forth. Divorce [i]Uzma Mazhar[/i] I am sure you have heard this a million times that 'divorce is the most hated thing in the sight of Allah - though He has permitted it'. I am sick and tired of hearing this statement because it is grossly misinterpreted and abused. There is no doubt in my mind that divorce is ugly and horrible, and that it has extremely negative consequences on everyone involved. That said, we have to admit that it is permitted... why is it permitted and under what circumstances? The problem is that this statement is used most often to pressure women to stay in the marriage by guilt-tripping them into believing that they are going against God's wishes, are breaking up a family and committing a most heinous sin. I don't hear it said to men. The same double standards that are used to enforce morality are used here to keep families together - exclusively on the women. The entire burden of the break-up is placed on the shoulders of the woman. If she is sâbir (patient), if she believes in taqdîr (destiny) and if she has imân (faith) she would not seek a divorce and the family would stay intact. The main reason for divorce is seldom addressed. The husband of course is flawless, perfect and the icon of innocence in this one-sided farce of a marriage. [i]Generally, women want to maintain a family, home and husband. Generally, women don't tend to seek divorce for frivolous reasons. (Exceptions exist but I will address that later.) Generally, women are dependent on men for financial reasons; with few having the means to support herself and her kids on her own. Most of the time when a woman gets to the point of seeking a divorce it is when she has extended herself beyond reasonable limits of patience. Usually what leads her to seek divorce is abuse - severe abuse.[/i] Now this is what galls me. A woman's plea for divorce when she is an abusive marriage is treated with the same degree of disregard as if she was seeking it for totally frivolous reasons. She is given the same platitudes that she should be patient, she should keep the family together, she should listen to her husband, she should be obedient and other such bull. The so-called wise elder (idiot) doesn't have the guts to call the husband and tell him to stop the abuse. The community doesn't have the courage to get together and set the husband right. There is no sense of justice or fairness in their tactics. Instead, people who speak up against abuse are black-listed from the community. There seems to be this unspoken coalition to maintain an image of 'good Muslims' to the extent that everyone turns a blind eye to anything that may mar their pristine mask. And of course Muslims don't have any other problems either. They don't get depressed, they don't lie, cheat or commit other crimes. They don't drink, they don't go to bars, they don't commit adultery. There is no incest or sexual abuse in Muslim families. There is no marital rape in Muslim marriages. Yeah, right! Hypocrites! Not only do Muslims seem to lack foresight, but they are also gutless wimps. They will talk the talk, but not walk the talk. Hypocritical wimps!!! They just don't seem to get it. Why can't they understand that if they don't address these problems these issues will mushroom and create bigger problems for their children; who being raised by such clue-less adults will not have the coping skills to deal with these problems. In their efforts to maintain a family, they don't realize that a child being raised in an abusive home will become either an abusive spouse and parent or a victim of abuse. OK... so going back to permissibility of divorce. Everything of hadith literature that I have read so far... I have not come across a SINGLE incident in which a woman was asked to stay with her husband when she sought a divorce in such seriously abusive situations. For Qurânic references and Ahâdîth check the above-mentioned: (Divorce: Khul) If you study the verses about divorce... it is dealt with very pragmatically, without judgment and without any put-down for the person seeking it - be it male or female. Instead, it is dealt with in a realistic and straight-forward manner... providing guidelines for how to conduct it in a just and fair manner. There is no innuendo or direct remark about how awful if you break up the family. Nor is there any blame against either men or women for seeking it. Men need to grow up, and so do women. Neither is immune to corrupt ways and deviousness. Both have the tendency to abuse, verbally or physically... whichever means they are capable of. Being an abuser is wrong, but being a victim is also wrong... one has an over-inflated ego and the other has an under-developed sense of self worth. If either of them think that they have the right to mistreat a spouse they have not grown beyond the self-absorbed stage of a temper-tantrum throwing 2 year old. Both are equally responsible for ruining a relationship. As a society, we tend to turn a blind eye to the woes of the woman, she is after all dispensable and 'lesser than a man'. A divorced woman is shunned and marginalized, the divorced man suffers no consequences, but is viewed as a 'catch'... now this I really don't understand... don't people check why he got divorced before giving their daughter's hand into his??? What is wrong with us??? © October 2004 UzmaM@aol.com |
| NS |
| 11/05/05 at 18:15:21 |
| Siham |
| Re: Looking for marriage |
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| timbuktu |
| 11/05/05 at 22:16:46 |
| [slm] also, I think I have read that if the man foregoes the "paying back" of the mehr nd the gifts, it is better. wallahu Alim |
| Re: Looking for marriage |
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| Fozia |
| 11/08/05 at 13:30:18 |
| [slm] I always thought (dunno why), that having to return part/all of ones mahr in divorce was only applicable if the divorce was asked over something like the wife simply did not like her husband although he wasn't horrible or anything. I thought that in the instance where the husband has caused harm to his wife, the wife has a right to leave and seek divorce without giving up her mahr....hmm now why did I think that??? Wassalaam |
| Re: Looking for marriage |
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| onemuslimgirl |
| 11/08/05 at 17:02:02 |
| sr. Fozia, there are certain conditions on which a sister can get talaaq or divorce--in this situation she gets to keep everything and the husband pays alimony and everything. however, if the wife just doesnt like the husband, ie thinks he is ugly etc, or other conditions that i am not sure of, than she asks for khulaa and in that case she has to repay the mahr and gifts back. sorry if my answer is so vague, but if someone has a better answer, plz let me know. anything that is right is from Allah and anything wrong is from shaytan, and may Allah forgive me inshAllah. |
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