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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Help me please (too mad to do it myself) |
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| Fozia |
| 07/16/05 at 12:06:27 |
| [slm] I'm a member on several boards (used to use them loads when bored and pregnant, less now as I'm back at work). Anyways could someone ahem BrbhalooSrJannahSrKathySrSe7en.... help me respond to this topic [url=http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=1375&threadid=92167]here[/url] or ummm respond to the question. I get so angry I can't speak/type coherently at some of the things people who are supposedly intelligent and educated come out with. Many apologies if I am not allowed to post the above link, I'm sure the mods will rectify the post should I have inadvertently made a mistake Wassalaam |
| oo |
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| theOriginal |
| 07/17/05 at 12:44:39 |
| [slm] Ah man...whoever responds...please don't post any long articles written by other people. Or any fatwas that will completely be lost on this audience. I would have tried replying, but I'm no good at this. Wasalaam. |
| the question? |
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| timbuktu |
| 07/17/05 at 14:09:57 |
| [slm] I am not quite sure I see what the question is. Is it about the promise of 72 virgins in Paradise? I tried to read through the entire conversation, but got lost. There isn't anything to get mad about. So far I haven't seen any derogatory remarks on that thread, but then I gave up before reading everything. There is a lot of ignorance, but not the Islam or prophet [saw] bashing that I see on IoL. |
| Hmm |
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| theOriginal |
| 07/17/05 at 14:26:13 |
| [slm] Actually the thing that caught my eye WAS a bashing of the Prophet (saw). That's the only thing that deserves a response... Wasalaam. |
| Speed read the post |
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| Kathy |
| 07/17/05 at 19:23:57 |
| [slm] Like timbukto, i sped read the post and just saw ignorance, but no mean spiritedness. What exactly did you want us to respnd to? What is your screen name? |
| defending Islam |
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| timbuktu |
| 07/18/05 at 08:02:31 |
| [slm] Reading through the thread you have mentioned, some things stand out in the questions and comments of the non-Muslims. This isn't just for this thread, but common to most "Westerners". First, there is a feeling that since the Western civilisation has been in ascendance for the last few centuries, and going strong, it is superior to the previous ones, in material and philosophical and even spiritual terms. Hence you will find the reference to separation of church and state. This freed the West from the clutches of the Church, and this then is what the West thinks is what Islam must go through. Our view is that we believe God created everything and everyone, and He did not take a holiday after that, He knew what humanity needs to do, so He formulated a right path for humans to follow for those who wanted the reward of His pleasure, and allowed numerous other paths for those who would go astray. He then sent His prophets to guide humanity. We believe that the Old and the New Testaments do not reflect the whole truth, since they were written by men, the original Torah having been lost, and the NT having been written at least 70 or so years after Jesus was lifted up onto the sky. The status of prophets of God is also contentious. The Bible assigns grave sins to the prophets, while we believe that the prophets are sinless, and the Bible has been changed to suit those who want to commit sins, and then justify on the grounds that the prophets also did the same. About the Prophet Muhammad [saw], the description of him as a warlord strikes one as attacking the prophet, but again this attack is out of their ignorance. Here we should provide examples from the Old Testament of Moses (as), Joshua, and David and Solomon (pbut). They were prophets, and also warriors. It is no shame to have to make war. Then we can go on to describe the prophet's mercy to all, on how he kept silent despite insults and persecution, and only took up fighting when there was no alternative. We could list that for the entire Arabia to embrace Islam, it took less than 1000 dead. The best way to such ignorance and prejudice is education. aloha: "...I cannot imagine how it would be possible in society for women to become public figures - politicians for example - with their faces covered. It is, I believe a way of nullifying women as individuals. men would never ever cover their whole faces. And that's totally aside from the heat, the claustrophobia, the problems breathing/eating etc." There are many such fully veiled women in the legislative assmebly of the NWFP in Pakistan, and some in the National assembly as well. There are renowned gynaelogists/obstetricians in Cairo )for example) who are fully veiled. answer to moondog on Friday, 15 July, 2005 10:21:01 PM "Well for a start that Sharia law and a democratic society cannot by definition co-exist." In a way yes, and in a way, no! if democracy means that paedophilia can be enacted as a law by a majority, then yes, democracy and Sharia are incompatible. Similarly for Sodomy. What it boils down to is that in Islam, democratic law-making by humans is bounded by Shariah. "That it is illegal for any religion apart from Islam to be practiced on the Arabian peninsula." Not exactly true. It can be practiced in private, or in secluded buildings within enclaves, but not in the main public. "That of the tens of thousands of madrassas (Islamic schools)in Pakistan, most reject attempts at reforming asyllabus that has remained essentially unchanged since 1057 and rejects attempts to introduce subjects such as maths,science and computing alongside the core subject,which is learning the 6,666 verses of the Koran by heart." The learning by heart is a miracle of the Qur`an. How many can claim to be able to learn the Bible by heart. And it is done within a short time as well. However, your comments about the madrassah education are absolutely wrong. These madrassahs have been teaching maths and science for a ling time, although modern laboratories and modern books on science were not available to them, because the medium of instruction for these subjects was English. It is more a question of funding for the laboratories, and the non-availability of standard books in the vernacular that has been the problem. "That my fathers students tell him with a dismissive laugh that it is ok for them to fuck Thai and Russian girls on their regular forays to Bahrain as they are not Muslims and therefore'don't matter." This has nothing to do with Islam. Islam forbids fornication. About the 72 virgins, again this is a fundamental difference in outlook. You think men and women should be "equal" in everything. If a man can have four wives, a woman should also be able to have four husbands. In this world sharing a spouse is unthinkable in the West, yet many men keep mistresses. In Paradise, there will be no negative feelings, so for women or houris :) to be part of a man's "Harem" wouldn't arouse anger. On the contrary, they will thank Allah for being in paradise, and giving them such a nice husband. "judging a religion by its practitioners" I would here describe the deterioration in human values over time, as witnessed in history, and the prophecy by the prophet [saw] that Muslims would follow the adherents of other religions in all their distortions. Hence this is to be taken as a warning and we are required to constatnly look within ourselves to make sure we do not diverge from the straight path too much. [i] These are just some off the cuff remarks. You should be able to research and cmplete the picture in a better way using these guideline. [/i] |
| 07/18/05 at 08:15:10 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Help me please (too mad to do it myself) |
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| timbuktu |
| 07/21/05 at 13:34:59 |
| [slm] Here is a link to a Folder on the prophet [saw] on IoL. http://www.islamonline.net/English/In_Depth/mohamed/1424/kharitah/article08.shtml On the right and the left are several links. These are worth a read, and taking notes, and posting on websites like mumsnet. In fact, IoL has several good articles that answer the misconceptions about Islam. And I believe jannh.org also carries some very good articles in this respect. |
| Re: Help me please (too mad to do it myself) |
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| Fozia |
| 07/23/05 at 13:55:57 |
| [slm] It was the derogatory remark with regards the Prophet (saw) that made me angry. Ignorance with regards Islam I can handle I come across it everyday. I can reply quite reaonsably, but not to remarks made about the Prophet (saw), by people who are clearly parroting bigoted media...... Must remember to breath deeply..... Wassalaam |
| Re: Help me please (too mad to do it myself) |
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| timbuktu |
| 07/23/05 at 16:21:04 |
| [slm] here is what I have posted. I just hope I have got it right :) peace be upon you all I was not really sure if I were entitled to be here. Are males allowed in here? Well, I am the son of a mum, the husband of another, and the brother of yet another. That should qualify me for membership, no Anyway, I registered for only a few posts because someone directed me to it, and I found I had to say something. First of all, I am very, very glad to see this collection of people, mostly mums, and an odd dad. I think it is a very cool, calm, collected and British sort of gathering. I am British by naturalisation, a Muslim, of South Asian origin. If I were younger by say 30 years at least, aloha would get off the bus I were in. Not that I would mind. She is frightened or uneasy, and while perhaps we should try to help her overcome her fears, she does have her rights. If people do not want to talk to me, or be in the same bus as me, I have no problem. By restricting their options, people only make their own lives difficult. Now if this led to reduced chances of employment or housing or similar requirements, that would be different. And of course, by keeping a distance, eventually the mistrut will increase, and become mutual. Grounds for more friction. I find the overwhelming majority on mumsnet to be liberal, open-minded, and caring. But there are some misconceptions about Islam here. I thought of giving you answers to the questions raised, but there are far too many questions. Let me therefore try to summarise a few points, and direct you to learn from certain sites. I apologise for the long post that this has become. I am going to write a little of our beliefs, and a little of what we do not believe in. This includes why we do not believe 100% in the older holy books, so I hope you do not find my words offensive. If you do, please tell us so, and then if I can, I will modify the post, or delete it altogether. First of all, Islam means peace, but it does not mean capitulation; it does not mean peace even if you are trampled upon. Resistance is allowed to obtain justice, but we are told in the Quran that forgiving is better than justice, and that under no circumstances are we to exceed what has been done to us. We are also told in the Hadith (authentic sayings of the prophet) that it is better for us that through our efforts even one person comes to submit to the One and Only God, than the wealth represented by a hundred red camels. (A red camel in those days would be equivalent of a Rolls Royce). Second, Islam also means submission, but it does NOT mean submission to Mr Bush, or General AbiZaid, or some other temporal authority. It means submission to God alone. The God we worship is the same God for all humanity. We believe God created everything and everyone, and He did not take a holiday after that, He knew what humanity needs to do, so He formulated a right path for humans to follow for those who wanted the reward of His pleasure, and allowed numerous other paths for those who would go astray. He then sent His prophets (peace be upon them) to all nations. And these prophets called humanity to the worship of One God, and asked them to follow the rules for that nation as revealed to the prophets. These may have been different from nation to nation, depending on their circumstances. We believe in the prophets mentioned in the Quran which includes those in the Bible, like Adam (perhaps the Bible does not recognise him as a prophet), Noah, Abraham, Lut, Moses, Elijah, Jonas, etc. including Jesus, who was born of the Virgin Mary through a miraculous birth. (May peace be upon them all). We believe in what was revealed to them all, but we also believe that the message of God was tempered with or partially lost. So we believe that the copies of the holy books prior to the Quran contain some mistakes that we do not believe in. If you want to learn more about what we believe about Jesus and his mother Mary, please read the Surah Maryam in the Quran. We do not believe God has any sons or daughters or wives or partners or any relatives. We also believe all prophets were sinless because God protected them from sin, or washed away their mistakes. In ascribing sins to the prophets (pbut), we think the OT has been tempered with, perhaps to justify others to commit sins with impunity. Hence we believe that the Old and the New Testaments do not reflect the whole truth, since they were written by men, the original Torah having been lost, and the NT having been written at least decades years after Jesus was lifted up onto the sky. Enough work by scholars exists to support this view. Someone here called the prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) a "warlord". That was one of the few instances when I felt that prejudice has crept in. What would you say about Moses, Jushua, David and Solomon? Were they warlords? We do not agree that they were. We believe that they were ordered to make war because of the corrupt practices of their adversaries. Similarly, the prophet Muhammad (saaw) kept tolerating all sort of abuses and torture and even killing of Muslims, and was only allowed to take up arms when the Meccan non-believers had left no option of a peaceful co-existence. I would request you to read more of his life. You will see how humble, how helpful, how considerate he was. http://www.islamonline.net/English/In_Depth/mohamed/1424/kharitah/article08.shtml There are other islamonline Islamic links on the page. The Discussion Board there is very weird, though. A lot of fighting goes on there, and the posters, both Muslim and non-Muslim, portary a very distorted picture of humanity. aloha said somewhere: aloha: "...I cannot imagine how it would be possible in society for women to become public figures - politicians for example - with their faces covered. It is, I believe a way of nullifying women as individuals. men would never ever cover their whole faces. And that's totally aside from the heat, the claustrophobia, the problems breathing/eating etc." answer: There are many such fully veiled women in the legislative assmebly of the NWFP in Pakistan, and some in the National assembly as well. There are renowned gynaelogists/obstetricians in Cairo (for example) who are fully veiled. There are testimonies from fully veiled women who wouldn't have it otherwise. moondog: ""That my father's students tell him with a dismissive laugh that it is ok for them to fuck Thai and Russian girls on their regular forays to Bahrain as they are not Muslims and therefore don't matter." Answer: This has nothing to do with Islam. Islam forbids fornication, and your father's students are very wrong. There was a post about the Khilafa, (Caliphate), in which the poster said that Muslims want a Caliphate so as to expel all non-Muslims. That caused me a lot of pain. Why such misconceptions? That just cannot be true. It was never done in the days of the Khilafah, so how can anyone want to do it now. Please read about the tolerance of the Caliphates in Baghdad and in Spain. Lastly, please note that we share a lot in common, but there are indeed some differences. The Western civilisation thinks that it is a superior and more civilised one, but actually when mankind ignores the Divine rules, and relies on its intellect or heart alone, it will go astray. Despite these differences, we have lived in peace and mutual trust in the past, and we can do so again. May God guide us all to the true path, and bring peace and prosperity to all, and a lasting contended life in the Hereafter. Amen. |
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