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Will police now shoot to kill?
jannah
07/22/05 at 10:49:14
Will police now shoot to kill?

A Muslim group has said it is concerned there is a new police "shoot to kill" policy in the UK following the shooting dead of a man in south London.

The Muslim Council of Britain said it was getting calls from Muslims who were "distressed" about the incident at Stockwell Tube station.

Roy Ramm, former Met Police specialist operations commander, said the rules for confronting potential suicide bombers had recently changed to "shoot to kill".

One terrorism expert said if the shooting was carried out by police - rather than special forces - it would represent a "pretty big departure" for the UK force.

Professor Michael Clarke, professor of defence studies at King's College London, said the officers who carried out the operation in south London were unlikely to be police.

'Head shot'

"These guys may have been some sort of plain clothes special forces," he said.

"To have bullets pumped into him like this suggests quite a lot about him and what the authorities, whoever they are, assumed about him.

     I have just had one phone call saying, 'what if I was carrying a rucksack?'
Inayat Bunglawala, Muslim Council of Britain

"The fact that he was shot in this way strongly suggests that it was someone the authorities knew and suspected he was carrying explosives on him."

He added: "You don't shoot somebody five times if you think you might have made a mistake and may be able to arrest him."

Prof Clarke said police officers were not trained to carry out operations in this way.

"Even Special Branch and SO19 (Scotland Yard's armed unit) are not trained to do this sort of thing.


"It's plausible that they were special forces or elements of special forces."

     

Mr Ramm said the danger of shooting a suspected suicide bomber in the body was that it could detonate a bomb they were carrying on them.

"The fact is that when you're dealing with suicide bombers they only way you can stop them effectively - and protect yourself - is to try for a head-shot," he said.

Former government intelligence analyst Crispin Black agreed there was no other way of stopping someone who was an "immediate threat to life".

Muslims 'jumpy'

"It implies that the police knew who he was, it also implies that they considered him an immediate threat to life, under which circumstances they must try and kill somebody...you must shoot to kill."

But MCB has urged the police to explain why the man - said to be of Asian appearance - was shot dead.

Spokesman Inayat Bunglawala said Muslims he had spoken to this morning were "jumpy and nervous".

"I have just had one phone call saying, 'what if I was carrying a rucksack?'.

"There may well be reasons why the police felt it necessary to unload five shots into the man and shoot him dead, but they need to make those reasons clear," he said.

"We are getting phone calls from quite a lot of Muslims who are distressed about what may be a shoot to kill policy."
Re:  Will police now shoot to kill?
BrKhalid
07/22/05 at 10:54:53
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

I wonder how others on the board living in London are feeling at the moment?

It's quite clear if you carry any sort of rucksack at the moment, you will be looked at from all angles.

Certainly very uncertain times we live in at the moment....
Re:  Will police now shoot to kill?
lala
07/22/05 at 11:06:35
[slm]

Truly is scary. Youre right Jannah, obvious looking muslims are a major target not just from the police even....

Protect yourselves people...and use common sense- travel lightly I guess?

salaam
Re:  Will police now shoot to kill?
thezman
07/22/05 at 11:26:14
   [slm]


Every counter-terrorist unit (even within the police, like swat teams in hostage situations) are trained to take 'head shots' not just special forces...

The level of danger he possessed is b/s, they assumed...and the guy was running away and they were chasing him. If he was suicidal, why didn't he detonate the bomb in the midst of the civilians or as the cops were chasing him? It kinda looks like he wanted to survive...So, the cops with all that adrenalin and being jittery shot 5 times. Like when 4 NYPD Cops shot Amadu Dialu 46 times!

And 5 shots to the head is excessive...1 shot can kill a person...The article posted on islamonline stated that the cops tackled him to the ground and piled up on him, then shot him? If he was such a threat, why get close to him at all, and in a group of cops?...If they tackled him, why didn't they take him alive to interrogate him and see if they can locate other member's of "this sleeper cell"
Since the other bombs failed to detonate, may be this guy deduced that it was a setup, and didn't trust the law, so they had to get rid of a loose end?

How the heck can another 4 explosions (exactly like the first, 3 under ground and one on a bus again) happen again, exactly 2 weeks after the first incident? Didn't they beef up security? Something doesn't sound right...

This reminds me of Rumsfelds quote, when asked as the invasion of Afghanistan was under way, 'would you rather see al-qaeda & taliban taken prisoner?' his answer was, 'yeah, that's fine...But i'd rather see them dead!'

So once again, new rules of engagement when dealing with muslims. Just like the way muslim's have been treated at Guantanamo and Abughraib (and these are the one's who are known)...

May Allah {swt} Guide and Protect us...Ameen
07/22/05 at 11:34:28
thezman
Re:  Will police now shoot to kill?
abdullahcohn
07/22/05 at 12:27:04
Iniyat Bagalawala was on tv again defending the police about this, why am i not supprised?
Re:  Will police now shoot to kill?
Fozia
07/23/05 at 04:49:41
[slm]

Everywhere except the BBC (why am I not surprised) have now quoted the police whatsit in charge as saying the man was unarmed.......I knew he would be, I had this dreadful sick feeling when I heard the news.

To sum up Muslims living in the UK should no longer [*]wear coats (yes it's been warm, but now it's cold and I was shivering in my jilbab at 8:30 yesterday, thankfully I did not get arrested for it ::)) [*]Do not make sudden moves in public, (ie try and jump off a train as the doors are about to shut because they didn't realise they'd reached their station as they'd fallen asleep) [*]No male Muslim looking person should run from the tube station at the sign of a possible bombing, because then he will a) be shown as the suicide bomber (if he gets killed) b) shown on the news as a potential suicide/suspect bomber if he still lives.  

Yes Fab Marvellous, doncha just wanna all rush over here to visit merry ole england.....


Oh yeah my brother in law was arrested at the tube station yesterday, as he's well fed looking (he is seriously), has a trendy goatee type thing sprouting from his chin) and he's pale complexioned (obviously all these mark him as an Al Qaeda agent)..... Oh yeah and he's a suited booted accountant duh.
They let him go....three hours later, and he still has a job as his manager is understanding.



Wassalaam

Re:  Will police now shoot to kill?
abdullahcohn
07/23/05 at 05:18:57
And most importantly, we must do a M Jackson and paint ourselves white, breathing while brown can be dangerous!
Re:  Will police now shoot to kill?
bhaloo
07/23/05 at 07:00:01
[slm]

It doesn't make any sense at all to me, IF he did have any bomb on himself, why jump on him and then shoot him?  There is more to this situation (are the police trying to cover up something?), and I wonder if we will ever know the truth.  

Re:  Will police now shoot to kill?
timbuktu
07/23/05 at 07:18:43
[slm]

[quote] Oh yeah my brother in law was arrested at the tube station yesterday, as he's well fed looking (he is seriously), has a trendy goatee type thing sprouting from his chin) and he's pale complexioned (obviously all these mark him as an Al Qaeda agent)..... Oh yeah and he's a suited booted accountant duh.

They let him go....three hours later, and he still has a job as his manager is understanding.[/quote]

I was reading the link on mumsnet that you provided, and the discussion on it. They are nice people, and kept saying how they felt sorry for everyone caught up in this, and I learnt ther about the arrests. No idea then one of those was your BiL. What a nightmare for him.

Such things change a person's outlook on life forever.

And ARY interviewed Haseeb Hussain, one of the alleged suicide bomber.

There is much more to it than meets the eye.

May Allah protect you all.

aameen
Re:  Will police now shoot to kill?
Fozia
07/23/05 at 07:47:12
[slm]

I've not visited mumsnet for a while now, as although the people are nice (guardian readers are my kinda people). At the moment because of the bombings and the would be bombings, open minded people are quickly closing their minds......


I am Muslim not a moderate not an extreemist just plain Muslim. For the life of me I cannot bring myself to discard my Jilbab for something less visible. For the life of me I cannot get angry at any Muslim who has currently been poratrayed as the alleged perpetrator.

May Allah protect My brothers and sisters, may Allah protect my brothers and sisters from the rule of tyrants, may Allah protect my brother and sisters from living under oppressive rule, may Allah protect my borthers and sisters from straying from the path of the righteous, may Allah protect my brother and sisters from deserting eachother. may Allah protect us all.



Wassalam
'He looked like a cornered fox'  cnn
abdullahcohn
07/23/05 at 11:01:42

Police here kill Muslims with strange stories all the time, but it usually gets very little attention. Only reason the media bothered to mention this one was the time it happened.
When the discision was made to issue the police with CS gas, A black civil rights workers said "the first person to die from this will be a black man".
He was right, he was a Black man, but he was a Muslim too. He had double the reason to be murdered.
The way he died was real strange too. he had a argument in his house with his wife. Naughbers called the police. He was asked by the policemen to go to the police station. he went to the station on his own, without the police to make a statement. And he was murdered with CS gas. Why? why would he strugle if he hadn't commited any crime, and he was just there to make a statement? Why would he try to escape if he was never arrested, and he was in the station by his own free will, and was allowed to leave any time he wanted?
Obviusly the police men who had murdered him were found innocent. but it was widely believed that they had gased him as an experiment, as they had never used it before so didnt know what affect it has. So they used far too much.
They choose a Black Muslim to experiment on because no one will ask about a black Muslim, least of all the self apponted and Blair appointed official spokesmen of the Muslims in britian. they are too busy flattering the ruling Zionists, to obtain more money and be seen with the in-crowed.

The reason why it was believed to be an experiment is that officer in that station experimented with electronic batton on police dogs when they were first issued with them. Electric battons were found with dog bites, but no one was charged as it was not known who did it. This kind of crulety can get them arrested in a dog loving country, but nothing will happen to them if they experiment on Muslims!

___________________________________________________________

'He looked like a cornered fox'

uploaded 23 Jul 2005



LONDON, England (CNN) -- Eyewitnesses to Friday's shooting at a London Underground station described seeing a man being chased onto a train and then shot several times at close range.

Police confirmed to CNN that armed officers had shot dead a male at Stockwell station in south London. (Full Story)

One witness, Mark Whitby, told BBC news the man appeared not to be carrying anything but was wearing a thick coat that looked padded.

Whitby said a young Asian man was shot five times after being chased into a train carriage by three men.

"As the man got on the train I looked at his face. He looked from left to right, but he basically looked like a cornered rabbit, like a cornered fox. He looked absolutely petrified," said Whitby.

"He sort of tripped but they were hotly pursuing him and couldn't have been more than two or three feet behind him at this time.

"He half-tripped, was half-pushed to the floor. The policeman nearest to me had the black automatic pistol in his left hand, he held it down to the guy and unloaded five shots into him.

"He looked like a Pakistani but he had a baseball cap on, and quite a thickish coat. It was a coat like you would wear in winter, a sort of padded jacket. It looked out of place in the weather we've been having."

Whitby said he had been about five yards away from where the incident occurred and was "totally distraught" by what he had seen.

He said 10 to 15 police officers armed with pistols and sub-machine guns had run down to the platform as he was helping an elderly woman away from the train.

Chris Wells told the UK's Press Association he was leaving Stockwell station when he saw a being man being pursued inside by at least 20 armed police.

"The next thing I saw was this guy jump over the barriers and the police officers were chasing after him and everyone was just shouting 'Get out, get out,'" Wells said.

Christopher Scaglione was also leaving the station when he heard a bang, followed by shouting.

"People then started to run and I heard two or three more bangs, like people shooting."

Journalist Chris Martin said he was waiting at Stockwell station when several men burst on to the platform.

"There was a lot of shouting, I thought it was football fans or something," he told the UK's Press Association.

"There was obviously some sort of altercation going on, and then they came flying onto the platform and these guys just threw this man into the open doors of the train.

"Then I heard shots. I thought it was three but someone else said five. It sounded like a silencer gun going off, and then there was blind panic, with people shouting and screaming and just running away.

"I didn't actually see the gun, but I heard this 'bang, bang, bang.'"

CNN's Nic Robertson, Henry Schuster and Phil Hirschkorn contributed to this report


Source:  CNN
Re:  Will police now shoot to kill?
thezman
07/23/05 at 12:09:33
[slm]

May Allah {swt} Forgive the brother and have mercy on his soul...Ameen


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