Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board

A R C H I V E S

Police lied about the Brazilian man, rethink all t

Madina Archives


Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board

Police lied about the Brazilian man, rethink all t
abdullahcohn
07/25/05 at 17:31:22

Staging An Attack To
Fix The Coverup
Of Another
From LibertyForum Post By "Impatient"
7-23-5

This latest "attack" is supposed to correct some faults in the first without causing further mayhem.
What has given them the most trouble with the first attack? Their choice of patsies.
They assumed that a loose Muslim connection would be enough to persuade everyone that these lads from Leeds were suicide bombers. But rather than clinch it for the planners, it backfired and the most common and reasonable question that everyone has about the suicide bomber fiction was invoked: How could young men who were not religious fanatics, who were educated, decent fellows, with loving families, and bright futures ­ how could they kill themselves and others?
Another unforeseen problem was the effusive praise coming from Efraim Halevi that described the London bombings as "near-perfect". Too many people could not get a picture in their minds of four young men with rucksacks able to so perfectly execute simultaneous bombings. It caused doubts that have not been quelled. Too many people saw the hand of the Mossad and its affiliates in the earlier bombing because the four "bombers with rucksacks" did not evoke the necessary sophisticated timing, operational capacity, and scope.
The latest "attack" is supposed to reaffirm that young men with rucksacks are perfectly capable of a simultaneous triggering of devices, a demonstrable fearlessness in the face of death, and a disregard for the lives of others, even women with babies.
Because all four bombs malfunctioned this time round, it tells us that the bombers are not the Mossad or any other intelligence agency because 100% malfunction is very unprofessional, it may mean that their first bombing was just good luck, not expertise.
While the rucksacks in the first bombing have not turned up, this new bombing tells us once again that four young men carried bomb-laden packs aboard the trains and [would have] died when they detonated.
The investigation has not proceeded methodically. The whole question of how the bombing was done and who did it was effectively squelched when they began looking for the needle in the haystack ­ the CCTV films. Without knowledge of the type of bombs, their power, placement, and detonation, there could be absolutely no reason to begin looking at CCTV tapes. They could not know what to look for without the certainty that the bombs were carried on, and not placed beforehand.
It is significant that of all the thousands of hours of CCTV tape they have examined, the only tape they seem to have of the young men from Leeds does not come from London at all! In the pictures we have seen the lads are in Luton, 25 minutes away. Unless they can show us the "bombers" going their separate ways and boarding three or four different trains I will not believe that the young men ever made it to London. Seeing them together at Luton means nothing if they cannot be placed getting on the trains at exactly the right time to take them the right distance from King's Cross before they explode.
In the case of the 7/7 bombings, going straightaway to the video tapes was very premature and irrational. It can only mean that they knew what they would find because they had planted the "evidence". It makes no sense to begin looking at thousands of hours of video tape from as far away as Luton without any idea of what you are looking for. What could it be? Rucksacks, packages, briefcases, baby strollers, gym bags? Suspicous looking people of a certain race? And remember that the first story was that at least 24 people had been involved.
What would be the motivation to look at the tapes from Luton? Did they also look at tapes from video cameras at the airports and bus stations? It would seem to be just as reasonable to look at those tapes as looking at Luton. And why is the Luton tape the only tape?
Luton is interesting because an office of ICTS (the Israeli security firm) is about a mile from a Thameslink station. ICTS is actually located in the Luton and Dunstable NHS Hospital. It seems a little odd that this firm that handles security for the Stansted airport would be located at the Hospital.
Just like the problem with 9/11 and Madrid - there were no hijackers and no bombers to film. They tried to get around that on 7/7 by getting some patsies to photograph. They did not leave it to chance, for those picked had to be disposed of as though they had been killed in the blasts. Never Mind the "Evidence," Who Planted it? The "investigation" that led to the Leeds four was not a real investigation because the videotape evidence was "planted" and the investigation was "led" to find it. People seem to overlook this fact and assume that there were real clues that led the "investigators" to check the video cameras in Luton. Luton is distant from London and a real investigation would have no more reason to check those cameras than they would the cameras at Stansted or Heathrow or the bus stations or Thameslink stations in other directions. They vaguely justify looking northward and in Leeds because one mother called about her missing son - one mother out of 120,000 calls!
Just like the 19 photographs of the suicide hijackers, we never ask where those came from and how the FBI got them. The FBI admits there was not a single piece of paper to indicate the planning or knowledge of 9/11 but we are to believe that pictures of 19 hijackers sort of "turn up" very quickly after 9/11.
But people seem to begin their questions too far down the road, away from the initial and thoroughly incriminating points.
Wherever there is "planted" evidence it means the perpetrators have planted it to divert honest investigators. To investigate the planted evidence as though it is real is to miss the opportunity of catching the fix at the beginning. It is those who plant the evidence who are responsible for the crime.
The real perpetrators give themselves away by going directly to Luton to find their video. What are the chances of that? They went to Luton before there was any forensic investigation at the bomb sites. They were off to Luton even before they had removed all the body parts from the blasts - before they had any evidence that rucksacks were used to bring the bombs onto the trains - they were on their way to Luton to find the pictures of the lads carrying rucksacks and they found them.



How Black Ops Staged the London Bombings

by Fintan Dunne, BreakForNews.com
22 July, 2005 12:00pmET

Staged terror events --like magic tricks-- rely on misdirection to throw people off the track. The first step in uncovering how the London bombings were carried out by a Western black operations team -is to see through the key misdirections they built into the operation.

Here's the official spin on what happened:

Key evidence of the movements of the four alleged bombers comes from a single CCTV image of four similar-looking individuals entering Luton Station to catch a London-bound train. Three of them had driven to Luton to meet the fourth and carry on by train to King's Cross station in London.

The police claim to have another CCTV video of them splitting up at Kings Cross and heading in different directions to carry out the attacks. Papers identifying them were found at the scenes --where their bodies have also been recovered. Police also found bomb materials in the car they left at a pay carpark in Luton.

That's the tale of the "suicide bombers." The big problem with this account is that a terror group would never deliberately waste valuable human resources in suicide attacks, when suicide tactics are not needed.

In answer, mainstream media are now also pushing the line that they may have been duped --and didn't know the bombs would explode immediately they were set. In alternative media some are also pushing the idea that they simply thought they transporting drugs.

Both explanations assume the four did actually carry the bombs onto London's Underground trains and a bus.

Which of course, they didn't. All this has been misdirection.

Here's how it really went down:

The three who were driving from Leeds to Luton never completed their journey. Somewhere along the M1 motorway, a car with a flashing blue light came up behind them and both cars pulled over to the side of the road. The seeming police officers demanded identification and then insisted that the car be moved off the motorway for safety reasons and for further questioning.

Meanwhile another team was intercepting the fourth person in as he made his way from nearby Aylesbury to Luton. None of them would be seen alive in public again. They did not participate in the bombings.

The CCTV image of them entering Luton Station is a cut and paste of prior surveilance photos taken of the four. This is the key misdirrection.

Intercepting the four would have been much to public once they entered Luton Station. They were taken out before that. Let's come back to what happened to them after we unveil the other key misdirection.

The bombs on the Underground were not in the tube carriages. They were under the floors of the carriages. The black-ops team would need access to rail or maintainance yards in order to plant these timed devices.

That's the reliable way. That's why this was inevitably how it would be done.

Confirmation of this comes from a number of reports, including this eyewitness account of the Aldgate East tube bomb by Cambridge dancer Bruce Lait. He and dance partner Crystal Main were the only passengers in their carriage who survived without serious injury - despite being nearest to the bomb blast.

Here's the Cambridge Evening News report [ also]:

"When I woke up and looked around I saw darkness, smoke and wreckage. It took a while to realise where I was and what was going on... " He and Crystal were helped out of the carriage. As they made their way out, a policeman pointed out where the bomb had been.

"The policeman said 'mind that hole, that's where the bomb was'. The metal was pushed upwards as if the bomb was underneath the train. They seem to think the bomb was left in a bag, but I don't remember anybody being where the bomb was, or any bag," he said.
Moreover, Christophe Chaboud, head of the French Anti-Terrorism Co-ordination Unit, told Le Monde newspaper that the explosives used in the bombings were of military origin:

He added that the victims' wounds suggested that the explosives, which were " not heavy but powerful", had been placed on the ground, perhaps underneath seats. [Source also]

Or perhaps under the floor.

Causing injuries such as those suffered by Emily Benton, one of two Knoxville, TN sisters on vacation in London who were injured in one of the tube blasts. She had broken bones and skin missing on her feet:

"Her feet were badly injured (the hospital doesn't think she will lose her feet), and she has a bad cut on her arm." [ Source]

With much of the carnage taking place underground, it was useful that the bus bomb could provide an above-ground spectacle -and the only sighting of a bomber in action:

BUS blast survivor Richard Jones yesterday revealed how he came face-to-face with one of the London bombers. The Scots IT expert got off the doomed double-decker just seconds before it was torn apart in an explosion that killed 13 passengers.

"This young guy kept diving into this bag or whatever he had in front of his feet," he told The Associated Press.

He said the bomber was around 6ft tall, in his mid-twenties, clean-shaven and smartly dressed. The man was wearing hipster-style fawn checked trousers, with exposed designer underwear, and a matching jersey-stybr>

Individual posts do not necessarily reflect the views of Jannah.org, Islam, or all Muslims. All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the poster and may not be used without consent of the author.
The rest © Jannah.Org

nd body parts would be infiltrated into the forensic investigation. Their identity papers would be "found" at the scenes of the bombings. Their injuries would be consistent. Their names and their memory smeared forever.

It's war. This is what it's like. Stop it.
 



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shamireaders/message/570
http://www.jannah.org/board/attachments/Luton-thumb-BreakForNewsdotcom.gif
Luton-thumb-BreakForNewsdotcom.gif
Re: Police lied about the Brazilian man, rethink a
jannah
07/25/05 at 20:33:06
wlm,

that's really far-fetched... i mean conspiracies can only go so far...

yes they lied about the brazilian man. if he was muslim they would probably have continued to lie, but for england to "stage" the terror bombings etc is really a huge fictional leap to make

why can't muslims admit that rage and anger over the injustices happenning in the world can take over a person...i mean human beings can only take so much

its interesting this researcher in chicago wrote a paper on "why suicide bombing" he said it was an unknown phenomenon in human history, but has appeared recently and only when people are living under occupation... hence tamil tigers when under indian rule, palestinians under israel, iraqis under the US and now carrying over to the rest of the world that feels the occupation as well. its wrong but there's no way they're all "staged by mossad" or whatever

i'm sure you've heard some muslims that have really strong views about what is going on in the world.. i don't see why its so hard to believe that rage and hate can fester inside them until they ignore all islamic precepts until they get to this point that they believe wrongly that 'the ends justify the means'.
Re: Police lied about the Brazilian man, rethink a
thezman
07/25/05 at 22:27:05
   [slm]

You are right jannah about the injustice of western imperial powers upon Muslims and the entire peoples of the third world. It very well could have been muslims. and muslims in the miidle east have committed such acts also...But you can't be dismissive of western or Israeli complicity either, NO ONE's HANDS ARE CLEAN IN THIS ERA.

 Bqt, regarding a european nation staging a terror attack on it's soil is far fetched, if you want proof, just look up "Operation Gladio" and you'll find out that not long ago (the 70's & 80's) several european nations used terror attacks, car bombs, etc against their own population and blamed the communists and leftists in those countries...

 Check out what italian special forces and intelligence services did to combat the leftists & mafia...They'd commit the terror act and blame it on them as an excuse to retaliate with extreme prejudice.

 and it could have been the mossad also, they are the best at dirty tricks.

 Also, at the height of the war between the SAS/MI6/MI5/Special Branch against the IRA...They discovered and published that the brits did place some bombs in london and claimed that the IRA did it...Soon after that, they sanctioned the SAS to track down IRA members and Assassinate them. And one specific hit became public and the papers dubbed it 'englands dirty war' after the dirty wars of central & south america (between the various government's and their own people).
07/25/05 at 22:34:06
thezman
Re: Police lied about the Brazilian man, rethink a
bhaloo
07/26/05 at 01:33:32
[slm]

I don't think its far fetched, and don't doubt that Israel or some western country had their hand in this.  We are not talking about a country that is under occupation, we are talking about the UK.  These are educated people, and in some cases they have families, and don't seem that religious themselves.  How on earth would they even think about doing something like this?  I think it was last week where I read on Kashif's blog a news story on Yahoo, that Israel admitted they had advanced warning of the attack.  Just like they had advanced warning of 911.  I haven't come across any website that even sanctions these attacks.  I think before we start pointing the fingers at our Muslim brothers, we should give them the benefit of the doubt.  
The army asked me to make bombs for the IRA, told
abdullahcohn
07/26/05 at 03:45:33
The army asked me to make bombs for the IRA, told me I had the Prime Minister's blessing ... then tried to kill me

uploaded 17 Jul 2005


Neil Mackay

Exclusive: confessions of a secret agent turned terrorist

KEVIN Fulton is very clear about where the orders were coming from. 'I was told that this was sanctioned right at the top,' he says, sipping a Pepsi in the bar of a Glasgow hotel. 'I was told 'there'll be no medals for this, and no recognition, but this goes the whole way to the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister knows what you are doing.'
This was 1980, and if Margaret Thatcher knew about the activities of military intelligence agents such as Fulton, then she was also aware her own military officers were planning to infiltrate British soldiers as 'moles' into the IRA. These moles were ordered by their handlers to carry out terrorist crimes in order to keep their cover within the Provos so they could feed information on other leading republicans back to security forces.

For almost two years the Sunday Herald has been investigating the activities of the FRU -- the Force Research Unit, an ultra-secret wing of British military intelligence. Fulton worked for the FRU for much of his career as an IRA mole. This unit, which has been under investigation by Scotland Yard commissioner Sir John Stevens for more than a decade, was involved in the murder of civilians in Northern Ireland.

Nicholas Benwell, a detective sergeant formerly attached to the Stevens Inquiry, says the Scotland Yard team came to one conclusion: that military intelligence was colluding with terrorists to help them kill so-called 'legitimate targets' such as active republicans. FRU handlers passed documents and photographs to their agents operating within paramilitary groups detailing targets' movements and the whereabouts of their homes. Pictures were also handed over to help gunmen identify their victims. But there was a problem. The targeting was far from professional and many of the victims of these government-backed hit squads were innocent civilians.

In 1989 the FRU passed information to the UDA which the loyalist gang used to murder the Belfast solicitor Pat Finucane, who was shot dead in front of his wife and children. Last week, Prime Minister Tony Blair pledged that the Government was determined to uncover the truth about Finucane's murder. The Canadian judge Peter Cory who was called in by the government to investigate the case is expected to recommend a public inquiry. The Irish government is also pressing for an inquiry of its own.

So who was the overall controller of the FRU with its 'licence to kill' republicans? Until now it seemed that responsibility for the activities of the FRU rested on the shoulders of one man -- Brigadier Gordon Kerr, the Scottish officer who led the unit and is now the British military attach? to Beijing. A two-part BBC Panorama programme, concluding tonight, much of it based on the Sunday Herald's previous investigations, puts Kerr squarely in the frame.

But if Fulton's claims are correct, then Kerr, soon to be questioned by the Stevens team, was just one link in a chain of command which went all the way to the cabinet and the Prime Minister. As Fulton says: 'Kerr was just following orders. Soldiers don't make up the rules, they just do as they're told.'

Fulton's story begins in 1979. He was 19, and had just enlisted in the First Battalion Royal Irish Rangers. Kevin Fulton isn't his real name, but a pseudonym used to protect his identity since turning whistle-blower on the activities of the British military, the RUC and the security services in Ulster's 'dirty war'. His work for military intelligence has been confirmed by FRU sources.

Fulton's military file quickly found its way onto the desks of the Intelligence Corps, the regiment which includes the FRU. It made interesting reading. Here was a Catholic from Newry, in the heart of a republican strong-hold, who seemed a loyal servant of the Crown. After only a few weeks in the army, Fulton's staff sergeant approached him. 'I was told that some guys from military intelligence wanted to speak to me,' Fulton says. 'They asked me if I'd like to work for them and I said 'no' as I wanted to remain in uniform. They told me to think about the offer. They added that I shouldn't tell anyone about the visit and that if I was asked I should say they were from a military welfare group. The next time we met they asked me if I'd go to Newry with them. We looked through pictures of local characters and I put names to faces, saying if they had a republican background or not.'

The two FRU officers, one of whom was Scottish, continued to try and persuade him to work with them. 'They confessed they needed guys like me -- Catholics from that part of Northern Ireland -- in order to get inside the Provos,' he says.


Fulton was still unsure, so the FRU asked him if he could help recruit a Catholic civilian in Newry who might be willing to go inside the IRA. He did. It was an old friend, who he refers to as Agent Washington. He and Fulton accompanied FRU members to the army training camp at Ballykinlar in County Down. 'He was given weapons training. They taught him how to fire an M16, AK-47s, Remington wingmaster shotguns, Sterling sub-machine guns and a Browning 9mm,' says Fulton. 'Remember that this was a civilian going inside the IRA.'

Fulton finally decided he'd work with military intelligence. In 1981, he was officially given a compassionate discharge from his regiment on the fictitious grounds that his father was seriously ill. He also received papers claiming he'd been thrown out for republican sympathies -- a great document to present to the IRA men he would soon befriend.

From then until 1995, Fulton remained on full army pay as he worked his way through the ranks of the IRA. He began drinking in republican bars in Dundalk and socialising with senior IRA officers, including Patrick Joseph Blair, who the Sunday Herald named this year as one of the men behind the Omagh bombing. Blair later went on to became Fulton's 'mentor'.

Not long after his discharge, he told one prominent IRA man that he wanted to join the organisation. He was taken to a room above a bar and confronted by a number of men in balaclavas. 'I'd told them that I'd been kicked out of the army and they started shouting at me saying 'So you're telling us you'd shoot your f***ing comrades if you saw them in Crossmaglen?' I said 'Yes, of course'.

'They started calling me a tout (republican slang for an informer) and saying they were going to shoot me. Eventually, they dragged me outside. They told me to kneel and say the Act of Contrition. I heard a huge bang behind me. It was them banging a big bit of wood on the ground to pretend to be a gunshot. They were testing me. They told me to come back when I was ready.

'My handlers thought this was great. I offered my services to the IRA saying I'd help carry out robberies to fund them. This was all with the knowledge of my handlers in the FRU. I made pals with a prominent Sinn Fein councillor in Newry who suggested I hijack a lorry carrying TVs. I knew that this would give me credibility, so that's what I did. I took a lorry in Belfast with about £100,000 of TVs inside.'

Fulton was later arrested for the robbery and served a year in the Crumlin Road prison in Belfast. Because of his republican connections he was denied the usual privileges of an ODC -- an ordinary decent criminal. This also gave him additional credibility with the IRA.

Fulton was released in 1986 and inducted straight into the IRA. 'My handlers told me to do anything to win their confidence. That's what I did. My brief was that if I got into a situation where I couldn't get to my handlers but I had to break the law, I was to try not to take a life. I was to shoot high or blow up a bomb prematurely. But that isn't always possible. If I f***ed up all the time, then the IRA would shoot me. Don't forget I also ran the risk of getting shot by the army and the police. I mixed explosive and I helped develop new types of bombs. I moved weapons. If you ask me, 'Did I kill anyone?' then I will say 'no'. But if you ask me if the materials I handled killed anyone, then I will have to say that some of the things I helped develop did kill.

'I reiterate, my handlers knew everything I did. I was never told not to do something that was discussed. How can you pretend to be a terrorist and not act like one? You can't. You've got to do what they do. The people I was with were hard-hitters. They did a lot of murders. If I couldn't be any good to them, then I was no use to the army either. I had to do what the man standing next to me did.'

This took an especially dark turn when Fulton became a member of the IRA's 'internal security squad' -- also know as the 'torture unit' -- which interrogated and executed suspected informers. 'I remember once when a guy had been questioned for three days in a safe-house in the Republic,' says Fulton. 'They eventually rolled out a sheet of plastic and decided we were going to 'nut' him. We drew straws to decide on who would do the shooting. Luckily, I didn't draw the short straw.'

In 1992, Fulton told his handlers -- this time in both the FRU and MI5, that his IRA mentor Blair was planning to use a horizontally-fired mortar for an attack on the police. His handlers did nothing. Within days, Blair fired the device at an armoured RUC Land Rover in Newry, in the process killing policewoman Colleen McMurray. Another RUC officer lost both his legs.

Fulton then travelled to the US and helped develop light-sensitive bombs, activated by photographic flashes, to overcome the problem of IRA remote-control devices having their detonation signal jammed by army radio units.

'I broke the law seven days a week and my handlers knew that. They knew that I was making bombs and giving them to other members of the IRA and they did nothing about it. If everything I touched turned to shit then I would have been dead. The idea was that the only way to beat the enemy was to penetrate the enemy and be the enemy. At the time I'd no problem with this way of thinking.'

The claim that the cabinet and Thatcher knew of these types of operations is startling. Thatcher's office has refused to comment on Fulton's claims. It is known, though, that intelligence supplied by other British army moles inside the republican movement was being read at cabinet level. One such mole, Willie Carlin, was flown out of Northern Ireland in Thatcher's Prime Ministerial jet in 1985 after his cover was blown. As chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee, which met weekly at Number 10, Thatcher was kept informed of FRU activities. Whether this ran to the day-to-day details of agent-handling is not known. Thatcher did grant the FRU extra funding to recruit agents in the wake of the IRA's Remembrance Day bombing in Enniskillen.

Fulton split with both the IRA and military intelligence in the mid-1990s after a number of terrorist operations went disastrously wrong. Once his handlers told him to get a mobile phone and a car for a planned hit in 1994 on a senior RUC officer in Belfast. The IRA team was arrested on its way to carry out the murder.

Fulton believes his handlers thought he had outlived his usefulness and deliberately linked him to the operation before tipping off the police about the plan. By then, the army had secured a far more highly-placed mole within the IRA -- a man still active and codenamed Stakeknife. Fulton is sure that he was compromised, so the IRA would kill him and believe they were free of informers, allowing Stakeknife to pass top-grade information to the military without risk of being detected. 'If I was dead that would have been the end of it,' he says. 'There would have been no embarrassment to the army.'

From 1995 until now Fulton has been fighting the MoD -- demanding they clear his criminal record, give him a new identity, a relocation package and provide a military pension. 'If they hadn't screwed me, then I wouldn't be screwing them now,' he says. 'If the IRA ever find me I'm dead. I accept I'm a marked man, but I intend to take everyone down with me who was in on this -- no matter how high up the stink goes.'

Source:  Sunday Herald

Comment:  Original Link: http://www.sundayherald.com/25646

__________________________________________________________
It sounds farfetched, but they have done it many times before, and admited doing it many times before. If you need to have a war or make strange new laws you need a reason to do it. If a reason does not exist, you need to make one. This stuff happens all over the world, its just every nation wants us to think its only other nations that do this stuff.
Re: Police lied about the Brazilian man, rethink a
jannah
07/26/05 at 07:38:26
wlm,

that story is about an agent placed inside a terrorist group and going along with them.. not about the government creating elaborate terrorist bombings of civilians for their own agendas... i'm sure its happenned at some time or other... some undercover documents have come to light in the US where the US did it in some south american country to garner support for someone or other..

but in this case... it is just too elaborate with too many people involved... and too many pictures.. if they find the second group of 4 men at the trial they will release the entire video and how will ppl deny that then?

sure its good to give our "brothers" the benefit of a doubt, but first of all we will never ever in this life know the truth of what happenned. denying that something happenned doesn't make it go away. it's still there. secondly, not a single average person in the UK believes this conspiracy hocus-pocus and any muslim that comes up with it is said to be "supporting" terrorism or making up stuff to protect their "brothers". and thirdly i'm sure you all have encountered muslims who enraged by what is happenning in the world talk really angrily and had they the means and lack of education about islam i have no doubt they'd take it to the next level...


sooooo stop denying it... lets try to minimize the backlash and work on protecting all the Muslims
Re: Police lied about the Brazilian man, rethink a
lala
07/26/05 at 09:12:59
[slm]
Even if these 'muslim brothers' are innocent- this doesnt take away the fact that muslims are bombing each other in iraq, afghanistan..and who knows where else. Granted all these problems are a result of our nations' policies and actions - this does not give any Muslim the right to kill in the name of Allah swt, others.

Sometimes I feel that we are trying too hard to find these conspiracy theories- why cant we just accept that there are a few crackheads within our Ummah or rather - a few crackheads who claim to be a part of our Ummah...who in turn go around do some really stupid disgusting things and as an effect- our whole religion gets blamed!.

There is no doubt that as Muslims we detest these things. WE detest the invasion of Iraq, we detest the occupation of Palestine, Afghanistan....the struggles of our brothers and sisters in Chechnya, bosnia...Africa... But comon now!

Even if this stuff is true- I cant deny if it is or isnt - we cant deny that we got some messed up brothers and sisters within our ranks. I was watching PBS last night and they had this french dude on it talking about globalization of Islam... Some things he said hit home - these suspected bombers or those who fit their profile - dont really belong to any islamic group- masjid or what have you- they dont support any concept of an islamic state, they dont really care about the palestinians, or Iraqis - but rather they are just rebels who in essence find the newest fad to be this type of thing. They go searching for the 'iraqs, afghanistans....and instances of this london bombing....'. They are not iraqi, or afghani (usually) .... So how do we explain this defunct thinking?

Again, I dont and you dont know WHO committed these attacks- but we do have to work on safeguarding our Religion and our communities instead of just focusing on this being a conspiracy.....blah!


hmm or perhaps I'm brainwashed myself.... ???
salaam
Re: Police lied about the Brazilian man, rethink a
thezman
07/26/05 at 12:59:19
   [slm]

You are absolutely right, we have our own yo-yo's also, and they have committed atrocities just like non-muslims, it's not denial.

Just as people are accused of being conspiracy theorists, those accusers completely rely (without reservation) on the information provided by one source that doesn't allow other's (non governmental) to examine or participate in the investigation. So how do you know what they tell us is true?

again it could have been muslims, all i'm saying is examine what evidence makes it to the mainstream media, alternative media and any public sources you may have access to, and deduce for your self.

these guys don't fit the terrorist profile...going back to pakistan to learn about your religion and culture doesn't make anyone guilty of anything...running into each other or meeting several times? so what, they could be friends chatting, do they have them on tapes planning this operation?

As for the pictures, they are all in public! they could pull a picture just about on anyone who is in public, everyone is being watched. walking to the train and having a backpack isn't hard evidence! do they have photos of the bombs in the backpacks, or being placed in them?

It's like the photo of atta walking to the plane at jfk airport, what the he-ll is that? is that incriminating evidence that he rammed the plane into the WTC? their were other passengers photographed also going to the plane!

the governments story changed so many times, since the first bombings and people immediately doubted them, especially after it was found out that there was an exact exercise at the exact locations...

they said after the first bombings, that the explosives were very sophisticated and military based, so it could be al qaeda (very experienced in these matters), then 4 more attempted explosions that failed 2 weeks later, again 1 double decker bus and 3 underground...if the people were that good and the bombs were that sophisticated, why did they all fail, especially when this never happened anywhere before (bombs failing to detonate).

so the first 4 guys weren't experts as they made them out to be, nor were they highly detailed and synchronized...Muslims in the west cannot carry out these types of operations...Just the planning, observation of targets, logistics, training, etc, needs more people than just these 4. they won't get any support from the muslim community in the west, because virtually everyone is against these acts, and if they get guys from abroad, they can easily make mistake not fitting in.

Besides, when muslims agree to meet up at a certain time to see a movie, or go to masjid, etc...they are always late! so how in god's name can they coordinate 4 simultaneous attacks or hijacking 4 planes (and they suked at flight school)...

These types of operations need a security service of a major world power or regional power...

they killed the brazilian dude, and they were absolutely surre he was a part of the cell...

 all I'm saying, i accept your view that it could have been muslims, but you need to also keep an open mind, just in case it wasn't and someone is trying to make them out to be patsies.

 The point of constantly questioning, investigating and analyzing whether muslims did or didn't do it, the aftermath's wake is going to affect all muslims (participants or not), so we need to show solidarity, resolve and show our unity, so as to make it known that we won't be targets of abuse, hate or backlash nor shall we be anyone's patsies.

 they are constantly showing around 200 brazilians protesting ove 1 of their own. the brazilian government is demanding to participate in the investigation and wants total transparency, and the brits are cooperating and issued an apology.

 did they apologize for the execution, when they first assumed he was muslim? did the pakistani government demand an investigation? they did the opposite and arrested pakistani's instead! did people protest the execution or demonstrate, or were we to busy running for cover and issuing condemnations before the results were broadcast?

 Just an observation  :)
07/26/05 at 13:21:10
thezman
Re: Police lied about the Brazilian man, rethink a
abdullahcohn
07/26/05 at 16:48:53
you refering to me? I am never late, I just get the time wrong. Its not my fault, shaitan made me late. It was fate that i was late, i had no power to get there early.

Anyway, why are we giving so much attention to these fifty deaths? how many people have been murdered by the British and Americans in Iraq over the days that have past since 7/7?  50 civilians/day, do the calculations.
White deaths are so tragic that we have to give them our full attention while Iraqis arent worth anything?

May be the people who did this were Muslims, May be they were not, Allah knows, I don't.
But if they were Muslims, I am sure Tony Blair is lying when he says "They are doing this to change our way of life to theirs", and Bush is lying when he says "They do this because they hate our Freedoms".

If it was Muslims, they may have done it because of the British soldiers murdering and torturing in Iraq civilians or the British soldeirs murdering a torturing in Afghan civilians, but not as a form of dawa to get all the British to become Muslim!
And the only one who hates America's freedom, and is destroying America's freedoms is Bush! He is the one removing them all! Muslim's, even the mad ones don't care about America's freedoms! What they care about is the Ummah and when america kills Muslims anywhere, all muslims feel it.

If it was the British or Britian's American Masters or America's Zionist Master's who did this. They did it to stop Muslims Supporting legitimate resistance.
So if we stop support our Brothers who are doing what Allah ordered them to do, in the way that Allah ordered them to do it. It has worked! The British, American's and Israel's often attack themselves and their allies for this purpose, and they will do it again if we let it work.

we are not allowed to kill civilians, this does not mean some one in Iraq who smashes a American soldiers head with a rock to stop him raping his sister is a terrorist who has to be condemned!
The Americans want us to think that a Muslim woman who slaps a American soldier who is trying to rape her is a criminal and a terrorist. They say there is no defence for what she does because two wrongs don't make a right!
So be carefull, if you are the type of person who wants to attacking actions muslims are accused of that you think are unislamic.
attack Unislamic actions, but defend Islamic ones.

Re: Police lied about the Brazilian man, rethink a
Fozia
07/27/05 at 07:09:18
[slm]

I dont think it was muslims whodunnit either to be honest.
There's a feeling of not quite rightness about it (if you know what I mean).

It does seem the police are far too ready to blame anyone who looks even remotely Asian/Pakistani, they've decided before the evidence that the perpetrators are Muslim suicide bombers, then they went trawling through acres of cctv footage to find persons to fit the bill. One alleged bomber was a primary school teacher and his wife was/is expecting their second child....doesn't fit, doesnt make sense.........



Wassalaam
Re: Police lied about the Brazilian man, rethink a
lala
07/27/05 at 08:40:04
[slm]

Just a few questions for thought. IN no way I'm I swaying one way...just a few thoughts..

So what constitutes legitimate resistance?

What in today's current world climate makes it legitimate to kill Muslims?

How should muslims go about fighting 'oppression'?

What does oppression mean?
Re: Police lied about the Brazilian man, rethink a
thezman
07/27/05 at 20:13:43
   [slm]

legitimate resistance is:

  Military Resistance: (to name a few)-
1. when a people's land is occupied by a foreign power (Freedom Fighters v. Occupiers)

2. a nation (government & the people) joing to repel an invasion by an outside force.

3. people rising against a dictatorship/tyranny

4. Resistance: through the art of public relations/diplomacy

5. Resistance: through literature, poetry, articles, word of mouth (grass roots)

  *These days there is no fixed reason to kill a muslim...all reasons and methods are
   valid...everything is so generalized & vague that this gives you room to maneuver.
   Muslim blood is the cheapest on earth.


  * Fighting oppression depends on which country you are in and against whom your actions are directed at (are you in a country experiencing oppression or are you outside and want to aid the oppressed population)

  * Opression- is physical, psychological, having no rights, treated in a sub human
manner, harrassment, oppression through thought & speech, etc




07/27/05 at 20:15:33
thezman
Re: Police lied about the Brazilian man, rethink a
bhaloo
07/31/05 at 00:35:57
[slm]

Brother thezman made some valid points earlier, and sister Fozia mentioned it as well, specifically the point about the UK officials putting up the pics of some random passengers on the train and saying they did it.  Since when is that proof?  They have video cameras on the trains, they should be able to show us video of the event and show us if it was their bag that exploded.

Also why are people putting the phrase Muslim Brothers in quotes when referring to these people that are alleged to have carried out the attacks?  As far as I know, killing people does not remove someone from the fold of Islam.  
07/31/05 at 01:43:35
bhaloo
Re: Police lied about the Brazilian man, rethink a
thezman
07/31/05 at 05:14:09
   [slm]

Brother Bhaloo,

The police had A well respected & popular imam of the birmingham mosque stand in front of a police station alongside them at a press conference to issue a call for help from the muslim youth and not to resort to violence.

This effort backfired on them when the Imam called Blair a liar, he lied about Iraq, and he's lying now...he also said how in heavens name are pictures of people in the street or on a train platform incriminating evidence? where is the proof that they carried the bombs, planted the bombs, it could have been anyone.

Also, the picture they showed of the 4 guys (in the train station & on the bus), it was only of one person (a muslim), where were the rest of the passengers on the bus or the commuters at the train station, and this is during the height of rush hour in london, there should be clusters of people...

also, in the first bombing where around 52 souls died, they said that the camera on the double decker bus by coincidence malfunctioned!...Now they are saying that the camera on the trains (the first bombings) that were blown up, are missing 25 minutes of film leading to the actual explosions and there is no back up!

Also, (this is my personal observation): when the police arrested the 2 men at their apartment and had them strip before being handcuffed, this occurred about one week and a half to 2 weeks of the "failure of all 4 bombs this time"...Now if these guys were actual participants in the bombings, why the heck would they remain at their homes after having their picture plastered on national and international media sources?

If you commit a crime, the first place the law searches for you is at your home, job, and friends dwellings. so why not attempt to escape or hide out in a remote area?

Going back to the Imam of Birmingham, he also said at the news conference that al-qaeda doesn't exist, and if it does it's the arm of the CIA...people are calling for his "Prosicution???" do you know how many sites and figures have said the same thing and haven't had anyone jump down their throats? yet when a muslims dares to think for himself and voice his opinions and views, then he becomes an outlaw...
Re: Police lied about the Brazilian man, rethink a
jannah
07/31/05 at 11:14:20
slm,

dudes the guy caught in italy already admitted his and the 3 others part in planting the bombs. he said they wanted to cause "confusion and terror" not kill anyone.


Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
A R C H I V E S

Individual posts do not necessarily reflect the views of Jannah.org, Islam, or all Muslims. All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the poster and may not be used without consent of the author.
The rest © Jannah.Org