A R C H I V E S
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| How important is race? |
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| Shahida |
| 07/26/05 at 14:42:30 |
| [slm] I need some input on a touchy subject...regarding marriage and race. To me it is not important which race the guy is, but what kind of Muslim he is, what his character is, is more important. I know i sounds hectically complicated, it is... Anyone in situation like this? How did you cope? Any advice? Wasalam Shahida :-) |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| siddiqui |
| 07/26/05 at 16:47:34 |
| [slm] Race and Racism is a problem of our ummah (esp. when it comes to matrimony )couched in the niceties called ethnicity, common culture, culture clash etc Its more deeply entrenched in our parent’s generation than ours (there are exceptions to the rule) I have experienced it both from my parents and the parents of prospective spouses that were considered ( some times my parents raised the issue of culture/race and the other times the parents of the girl refused my proposal and one of the main factors being culture/race). I have tried my best to resist the pressures though I admit I gave in on my first proposal cauz I really didn’t know the person. My fiancée (a very good friends sister) though is from the same city as me (infact from an adjoining neighborhood), Alhamdulillah culture/race never played a role in our decision to get married. My advice to the prospective spouses would be get to know the person who you are marrying (within the Islamic norms) and if you are convinced the person is for you then you can stand up to any kind of pressure, if one is not sure of the person then buckling to un Islamic and un reasonable requests/norms (both parental and societal) is just a matter of time Life esp married life has its own set of problems (between couples as well as societal and family) One of the basic things in a relationship is trust and mutual understanding (which is a blessing from Allah swt). In this present scenario If a prospective spouse can stand up for his/her partner now then he or she will do it later in life too InshaAllah. My advice would be talk it out give it time and discuss what’s important to both the people , if they match then go ahead InshaAllah oh yeah mad duaaas too;) [wlm] |
| 07/27/05 at 05:45:28 |
| siddiqui |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| jannah |
| 07/26/05 at 20:51:17 |
| wlm, it's unfortunate we have this problem in our ummah... u'd think two ppl who grew up here with the same islamic culture would be more compatible than trying to find someone of their "same ethnicity from back in the village". it's happened so many times in this community and others where the sister and brother knew each other from the community, msa or other islamic activities and admire each other for the sake of Allah and wish to get married to further that, but the parents are the sole barrier. from experience i would just say give it your best shot now and if the parents are still adamantly against it, drop it completely. because really in the long run...when the parents are against it, it just causes soo many problems. every couple and i could name at least 10 offhand that were interested in each other that eventually gave it up because of all the difficulties and misery involved. the one that i do know that succeeded did so after SIX YEARS of imams, community ppl, friends and family trying to help and only after the girl was ready to "run away" to that other community to get married. our families are not like the american system where the kids can just go off and marry who they want...in-laws end up being a huge influence and end up affecting your marriage in so many decisions and unfortunately contribute to alot of the problems (there was a great presentation on dealing with inlaws at icna btw) also some muslim guys are just not trained to stand up to their parents and defend their wife sometimes and so she ends up receiving all the criticism and she doesn't have the support of her family b/c she went against their advice anyways tell them to do istakharah and may Allah guide them both inshaAllah |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| Dazed |
| 07/27/05 at 00:28:11 |
| [slm] As someone who is the child of a mixed race marriage, I respectfully have to disagree with you Jannah. I don't think anyone should "drop it completely" because if the new generation do not begin to challenge the un-islamic views of our elders, we will just end up repeating the mistakes. [wlm] |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| dina |
| 07/27/05 at 02:12:38 |
| [slm] i agree with dazed, until we try nothing will change i had a recent conversation with my parents about this subject, alot of its to do with what ppl would say, the future son/daughter in law would stand in a family gathering, they cant speak the same language ect ect ect all these things are not enough to prevent a mixed race marriage taking place todays young muslims dont care for community feeling like the older generation and alot of young mulsims i know just speak english so it doesnt really matter i think for the couple in question, the propective husband if he is stong and can overcome his faimly objections and support his wife throughout the marriage everything should go well, to make things easier for the couple in question they should consider living alone not part of an extended faimly, with time the attitudes of parents will change especaily when kids come along [wlm] |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| buL-buL |
| 07/27/05 at 10:49:24 |
| [quote author=Dazed link=board=sis;num=1122403350;start=0#3 date=07/27/05 at 00:28:11] [slm] I don't think anyone should "drop it completely" because if the new generation do not begin to challenge the un-islamic views of our elders, we will just end up repeating the mistakes. [wlm][/quote] I don't think this cycle will continue. When it comes time for our children to marry we won't have these same objections as the elders in our families have. By then it won't be such a challenge to inter-marry. Like Jannah said, it is so hard to go into a marriage without your family's support. We have to remember most of our parents were not brought up in the West and cannot relate as well as we can to differences. Maybe it would be best to drop intermarriages at least for one more generation. |
| 07/27/05 at 11:26:16 |
| buL-buL |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| jannah |
| 07/27/05 at 12:01:51 |
| wlm, i don't think we should drop mixed marriages.. i think they're very good things!!! definitely "try" as i said before...but if it doesn't work say in like less than 6 monthsish drop it.... i've seen these girls.. a year, 2 , 3 years... they are emotionally and psychologically drained...by that time they are attached to the person and that affects them for life... some parents are really horrible (no offence to them they are just so stuck in their ways and they are just stubbornly not going to change their ways). yes its wrong.. but seriously its not worth it to the girl to put herself through that "on principle of being right". inshaAllah the next generation will be different. there are some parents already that are very open and have beautiful mixed families. |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| Muslimah08 |
| 07/27/05 at 16:32:52 |
[wlm] To me personally, race has nothing to do with it. The first thing I would look at is Islamic background and if he's a strong practicing Muslim. I've actually,never really pictured myself marrying some of my own culture, and I know I'm still young, bt Allahu Alim. Wassalam |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| M.F. |
| 07/27/05 at 18:40:44 |
| [wlm] I also think something to consider is how involved the future inlaws will be in the couple's life, or, more importantly, how much geographic distance is separating them? If they're going to be involved weekly or even monthly in their lives, it might make things extremely difficult on both spouses. If they'll only be visiting once or twice a year then that's probably manageable. But really the last thing one would want is a husband who's torn between his wife and mother, it's just too hard on everyone involved, and, I hate to say, he'd probably side with his mother more often than not. Wallahu a'lam. |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| thezman |
| 07/28/05 at 16:34:38 |
| [slm] Every thing has it's pros & cons.. But personally, I believe in diversity & multi-culturalism.. Marrying within one's culture has advantages, like same language and norms. Comminuication & understanding will be easier. But there still are a lot of marital problems within a one culture marriage, nothing is perfect or complete with the exception of Allah {swt}. To me, as long as Islam is the Foundation, then Insha Allah, the marriage (or anything else) shall be blessed by Allah {swt} and it will succeed and be fruitful...But expect problems to arise, as with every thing in life. Just have the determination & patience to work things out. Most importantly, make Salat El-Istikhara, and see what Allah wants you to do, and as long as you have His approval don't worry about anything else. |
| 07/28/05 at 16:36:59 |
| thezman |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| salaampeaceshalom |
| 07/28/05 at 18:45:02 |
| [slm] Hm, I think this all depends on a number of things, for instance, how much the couple really want to be with each other, if they really know each other well enough, if they're willing to stand up to everyone, and if there is *any* way of convincing the parents (even if it is just one parent)... My fiance and myself are from different ethnic groups. He also happens to be mixed (both his mum and dad are from different ethnic groups). We initially were drawn to each other because we could see 'islamically good traits' in one another, and he also seemed to be very spiritual, the level of which I have not found in even the people closest to me, and I was really aching to find that in someone, so I agreed when he asked about marriage :) (at this point we hardly knew each other!). I really didnt think my parents would have a problem, and the race issue didn't come to mind, simply because of the fact that my family is so mixed, made up of people from many different ethnic groups and beliefs. But, subhanAllaah to my utter surprise and dismay, it was a different story in my case :o. Imagine my shock :(. To cut the story short, it's now a yr and half later, and whilst I was recently travelling abroad, I eventually got my brother involved. Alhumdulilah my brother managed to convince my parents to give my fiance a chance, and what do you know, alhumdulilah, they fell in love with him :). It was one of the most amazing things when I cut my stay abroad short and came back, to find that everyone is in love with each other ;). What a change and a relief!! However, both our mothers are worried about cultural differences but mine is putting that aside and totally adores him now :), whereas for his mother, the cultural differences are *now* starting to become a major issue apparently :P, but despite this, alhumdulilah everyone is wanting us to go ahead with everything :). We finally have my parents' blessings!! :) So all I can say is perserver, if this is something the couple truly want, like seriously, and it is going to be difficult, without a doubt. Istikhara will be a really good thing to do, because either way, it will give you some comfort. Oh, I think what also helped was that sooooo many people made du'aa for us ;). Do try and get someone involved who could try and talk to one set or both sets of parents (whoever is having an issue with race), be it a family member or an imam or a family friend. All the best :-* wa'salaam |
| 07/28/05 at 18:46:39 |
| salaampeaceshalom |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| Maliki-Sis |
| 07/29/05 at 17:08:56 |
| [quote] Anyone in situation like this? How did you cope? Any advice? [/quote] Well my mum is threatening to commit suicide if any of her daughters marry a white man and surprise surprise i wanna marry a white man! Well, she can kill herself if she likes, or she can let us marry, or she can forbid us from marrying and then start crying if her daughter comes home pregnant one day! lol I think inter-racial marriages are a good idea anyway, because of what the previous poster said, we need to eradicate these racist views and what did Allah say in the Quran, something like making us into different races and tribes so that we may KNOW ONE ANOTHER and not despise one another. If the chosen husband is pious and has good character and can financially support the wife, then whats the problem? How can the ummah ever unite if ppl are gonna discriminate against someone because of the colour of their skin?! Its as stupid as saying: your eyes are blue and mine are brown so goodbye! The Prophet [saw] married the ummahatul mumineen who were from different tribes, to create ties and friendly feelings between those tribes. So if we do the same, how can that be a bad thing? [slm] |
| 07/29/05 at 17:11:47 |
| Maliki-Sis |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| onemuslimgirl |
| 07/29/05 at 18:01:03 |
| asalam alakum, i think each family is different and each person is different. make tons of istikhara prayers, as much times as you can and let Allah make the decision for you. even if the entire world had opposed your marriage, if it is the right thing for you, you will find yourself on your wedding day signing the contract....may Allah do what is best for everyone inshAllah! |
| ? |
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| jannah |
| 07/30/05 at 01:02:38 |
| wlm, wow maliki sis that's a little harsh... some parents have convoluted reasons for not wanting their kids to marry a certain person, and sometimes they can be legitimate like not being islamic enough.. certain problems that may come up (ie a black person marrying a white person in s. africa) etc. ...maybe you can try finding out what those are and try to dispell them... your mother carried you 9 months and raised you all this time i'm sure she only wants good for you.. i would try to convince her and ur family before you tell her to 'go kill herself' or go 'get pregnant'. right now marrying a certain person is one option for you.. but keeping ties with your family and following your parents in things that are good are obligatory |
| 07/30/05 at 01:05:44 |
| jannah |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| timbuktu |
| 07/30/05 at 08:07:41 |
| [slm] I am dead against the ethnic reasons for refusal to marriage. While compatibility is a factor, the real reasons I have not been able to empathise with. So although it is true that without the consent of the wali of the girl, the marriage isn't valid, (hmm, I think the Hafai school allows that), I think where the family is stuck on some such nonIslamic resaon as race/ethnicity, they can be bypassed. There was another case here some time ago, and the girl and the boy both talked to me. In their case I concluded they wanted for purely helping each other grow in deen while, and the family was being stubborn (the dominant mother again). Anyway I advised them to marry, and I do think there has been acceptance of this marriage by the family. |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| Maliki-Sis |
| 07/30/05 at 17:35:41 |
| [quote] i would try to convince her and ur family before you tell her to 'go kill herself' or go 'get pregnant'. [/quote] lol i was joking bout the getting pregnant thing! and no i dont want her to commit suicide either. but i am also making a serious point. If two people want to marry, and the male satisfies all the criteria of an ideal husband (well as close as is humanly possible to ideal!) then by forbidding them from marrying, you do then run the risk of zina no? whether its full blown shenanigans or just secret meetings for tea and biscuits... well we're trying to get an imam to help, but they sure do take their sweet time! LOL busy imams :-/ |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| SisterHania |
| 07/31/05 at 19:10:15 |
| [slm] Could not resist posting here :) Have been going crazy this past week and not sure what to do so any advice would be so welcome. Lets imagine we have girl A who was born and bought up in UK and has very poor arabic. She is a good girl, religous. She meets boy X, he is born and bought up in Jordan and come to UK three years ago. He is a good boy very religious. They both do istikhara and feel very positive and want to marry because they both feel they have good eman and each is pious. Boy X, who is really a grown man (31) goes to Jordan and asks permission from his parents to marry girl A. Parents refuse on grounds that girl A, is bought up in UK and is thus logically bad. Boy/man X tells girl A they cannot marry. Girl A continues doing istikhara and still feels positive about Boy/man X. She cannot understand how parents of Boy/man X can make judgement about her when they have never met her and do not know her. Boy/man X now avoiding her. What should girl A do? If she still feels positve after istikhara what does it mean? Should she just give up if boy/man has given up? Would it help if she went to Jordan with her parents to meet his parents? Confused. :( |
| 07/31/05 at 19:13:22 |
| SisterHania |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| Kathy |
| 07/31/05 at 21:57:35 |
| [wlm] Jordanian boy marries an :o American Muslimah. Takes him 3 months to tell momma. 2 years later, they have a child. Momma and poppa comes to American to see this hussy who stole her son from the neice they promised him to. Momma gives wife a very hard tiime. As she leaves, she whispers to her son that he is very lucky to have found such a good Muslimah and he would not find one so good back in Jordan. True Story! Mine! |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| thezman |
| 08/01/05 at 08:34:46 |
| [slm] Sounds like the way Marie Barone treats Debra in, 'every body loves raymond.' But without whispering, he's lucky to be with deb :) |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| Hatice |
| 08/01/05 at 18:26:23 |
| [quote author=Kathy link=board=sis;num=1122403350;start=10#17 date=07/31/05 at 21:57:35] [wlm] Jordanian boy marries an :o American Muslimah. Takes him 3 months to tell momma. 2 years later, they have a child. Momma and poppa comes to American to see this hussy who stole her son from the neice they promised him to. Momma gives wife a very hard tiime. As she leaves, she whispers to her son that he is very lucky to have found such a good Muslimah and he would not find one so good back in Jordan. True Story! Mine![/quote] But unfortunately, sometimes this kind of stories don't end up so happy. Don't mention the race; being from different regions of the same country can be a problem. Both of them is educated, both of them is living in the same city... But their families are from the different regions, and culture difference destroys everything; the big love, the happy mariage, and even a child can't stop it! Sorry being so negative, just because of the samples I watched with my own eyes. But in my view, if two people love each other and they feel they can overcome every obstacle, there's no problem. At last, they shares the believe, and it is the MOST IMPORTANT thing. :) I wish a lifelong happiness to all the couples. :) |
| 08/01/05 at 18:27:30 |
| Hatice |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| Barr |
| 08/01/05 at 22:21:38 |
| [slm] [quote]If two people want to marry, and the male satisfies all the criteria of an ideal husband (well as close as is humanly possible to ideal!) then by forbidding them from marrying, you do then run the risk of zina no? [/quote] My question is... what has led 2 "pious", "practicing", "Islamic" Muslims, to act such that if the prospect of marriage is taken away - they'll commit zina? Zina is not a black and white thing that will occur with a flick of a finger. It takes time for people to develop feelings, talk, go out, daydream, etc etc etc... and for shaitan to slowly creep up and stir lust in them to commit zina. Na'uzubillah. So, ukhti.. I'm sorry, but this argument does not fall well with me. I agree with what Jannah said - if one has tried for a while, and find that parents are stuck to their positions. Spare them, and spare oneself. Rebellion may get one's way. But it'll never change the mindset of the people. What's more important is that "enlightened" children, be proactive to discuss and help in the tarbiyah (education) of their parents, very early on. We know our own parents best. We know what works and what doesn't. We should also remind ourselves that these are the very people whom ALlah mentioned not to even say a word or even a subtle action of disrespect to them. If ALlah has put them at such a pedestal for us... who are we to lower it? Who are we to rob ourselves of their blessings? Things take time... and only Allah can soften their hearts. If we truly say that we want a person with a good deen, that is compatible with us, then, it could be someone of the same race/ culture too. Allah is always with those who are have patience, or, inshaALlah, struggle with having patience. Let's look at things with the right perspective. I believe, there's always barakah in having patience with the people whom Allah has commanded much reverence and respect. [quote]But in my view, if two people love each other and they feel they can overcome every obstacle, there's no problem. [/quote] Love is blind. To me, blindness is at it's worst state when it's a nafs-triggered "love". Where hardship looks easy, and red flags look green, where shahwah and hawa looks Islamic and pure.... and reality - blurred. Allahu a'lam... knock at your heart (not your self/nafs), and ask your iman. Sorry to be a wet blanket... but seen too many things. Allahua'lam Wassalamu'alaikum |
| 08/02/05 at 14:52:08 |
| Barr |
| How important is race? |
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| Sabrine |
| 08/02/05 at 10:07:54 |
| This question of race really ticks me off! I am sorry but it really agrivates me. I personally don't see the logic in choosing a spouse by their race. How is that going to determine what kind of person they are? Allah scattered the earth with many different colours and languages for a reason. We should be looking at deen and not race. Infact racism in islam is haram and you should try to change the way you think if this is a part of your life. I know that it is difficult when you have ideas ingrained in your head about a certain race but you have too change it and not let a few idiots decide what your view of a race is. I am married to a man of another race, we have different first languages and we speak in our second language. Our communication is just fine, infact I can't imagine being with abyone else, mash Allah. These things are all excuses, language culture etc....If you are following the deen of Allah then insha Allah you will be successful. Salam alaikum |
| 08/02/05 at 10:09:39 |
| Sabrine |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| Orange_Tree |
| 08/02/05 at 14:21:00 |
| *Orange_Tree stands up and applauds Barr's entire post*. *Orange_Tree then sits down again and types* I totally agree with Barr's post. there's nowt much i can add to the discussion except to say that race shouldn't be important when deciding on marriage but to ignore it just not possible when we live with parents who see things differently. The more mixed marriages, the more acceptable it will become though. |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| Maliki-Sis |
| 08/02/05 at 17:58:47 |
| [quote] My question is... what has led 2 "pious", "practicing", "Islamic" Muslims, to act such that if the prospect of marriage is taken away - they'll commit zina? Zina is not a black and white thing that will occur with a flick of a finger. It takes time for people to develop feelings, talk, go out, daydream, etc etc etc... and for shaitan to slowly creep up and stir lust in them to commit zina. Na'uzubillah. [/quote] No one is perfect sister. im sure you will be aware that someone can go from pious man to follower of nafs in one go. There have been numerous cases of pious bearded hajjis, trusted and respected by all, living a god-fearing life, then suddenly falling in love with a sister in law and abandoning his wife for her. this is jsut one example, and i haev witnessed similar incidents with people i personally know, so to say that someone who might suffer from temptations, and at a moment of weakness might act upon them is suddenly a bad muslim - even if they straight afterwards feel guilty and make tawbah. Zina can be hard to avoid if you are in a situation, say you take a liking to someone at college, and he's a white bloke. so you go to your parents: mum/dad i really like this bloke from school, he is namazi, saving for hajj, does all his fasts, gives zakat, nice character and spends a lot of time helping others and nafl ibadat. NO I WILL NOT ALLOW SUCH A MARRIAGE TO HAPPEN!! NOT WITH A WHITE BLOKE! NEVER WILL I ALLOW SUCH A THING!!!!!!! so it goes, the girl tells the boy such a thing will never happen, but they persevere with the parents hoping to change their mind, but they fail. time goes on, they still see each other at school, attraction grows, shaytan whispers: talk to him, its just talking no harm, and so it carries on to secret meetings etc etc. So what are you saying? such people are bad muslims and should only marry former prostitutes or whatnot? if the parents hadnt been so bigotted then perhaps that could have been avoided, in fact it would have been, because they will have a hala means to satisfy their desires. maybe you are totally frigid, but other people are 'cursed' with a thing called libido, and sometimes no amount of fasting or ibadat can take that away, so then what are such people to do? tell me sister, you who are such a good muslim, so pious and never ever tempted towards sin. what should us lower life forms do if we are plagued by such thoughts and our parents threaten to kill themselves if we ask to nikah? |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| Mona |
| 08/02/05 at 20:18:24 |
| [slm] sis shahida, ask guidance from Allah alone and do give the issue more thought and contemplation. your answer is in the istikharah prayer. ignore everyone else - they won't live your life. in a nut shell, mixed marriages can work. all marriages are hard work, and parents-in-law are usually very critical of the daughter in law. it does not matter if you are have the same racial background or not. if it were your parents who are objecting to this, then i would have said that they have a right over you and you cannot marry without the consent of your father/guardian. however, if the gentleman's family is the one that is being the pain, they have no right islamically speaking, to disallow him from this marriage. a man does not need a guardian in marriage. if they cannot come to terms with his choice, and the choice is a practising muslim woman who happens to have a different background, then it is their loss. they will come around, though. believe me, they will. be an adult and take charge of your life. do what's right for you, after seeking help from Allah. afterall, you will marry the guy, not his family. they will be in the picture, but you won't have to marry them! take care wassalam |
| 08/02/05 at 20:19:56 |
| Mona |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| modesty |
| 08/03/05 at 10:25:40 |
| [slm] The problem from what I've seen is that many people who go through this situation meet in college. Often times they are have just started practicing their deen. For sisters who have grown up here, many have just started wearing hijab and learning about hayaa'. Then when they meet a person that they believe is "perfect" for them, they often lack the strength of emaan and the amount of wisdom and especially self discipline require to handle the situation as sister Barr and Jannah have described. Definately their naseeha is wise and without the confusion that comes with having nafsani-emotions in play. What happens is when a brother pays special attention to a sister, says he wants to marry her, most sisters go all goo-goo-ga-ga because it may be the first time in their life that someone has wanted to marry them. That can be flattering for young sisters and that is all it takes for someone who is just beginning in their deen, and does not have a very firm footing in their Islamic character, to let their nafsani-emotions take complete control, especially sisters (thus the wisdom of walee!). Things may have started out with the best of intentions but without the wisdom and firm footing and conviction in the commandments of Allah which takes time to build, like Maliki-sis explains, nafsani-emotions easily kicks in, everything becomes blurred. My advice: sister, just do YOUR part. If Allah willed, He could change your parents heart in an instant, but He did not and there is a wisdom and reason for everything. If your parents (especially your walee) says no, THEY are accountable for their decision to Allah swt but YOU are accountable for yours in not doing something without the consent of your walee. The only time you can disobey your parents is if they are asking you to do something haram. Not marrying this person may make you sad, but is not haram, thus you should not disobey them. On the other hand, if your parents are bringing you candidates for marriage, your responsibility is to only accept if the person is islamically sound. This is all a test for you. Do what is required of YOU according to the commandments of Allah swt and He will put blessings in it for you and compensate you. If the person is right for you, not only will he be a practicing brother who loves and fears Allah swt and has good character, but your parents will approve too Allah swt will make the path easy and smooth for you. Leave your affairs with Allah. Have trust in Him know that Allah swt is with those who are patient. I hope I've said something of benefit inshaAllah. May Allah swt guide us and protect us from the deceptions of shaitan. [wlm] |
| 08/03/05 at 10:54:15 |
| modesty |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| Fozia |
| 08/03/05 at 11:30:41 |
| [slm] Can I just say it is not permissable (as I understand it) to speak to a marriageable man in a soft voice, or to be alone with him without a mahram. If these guidlines are followed, getting pregnant shouldn't happen...... I had a conversation with my husband a while back, I asked my husband if he would mind if our daughters married outside our race, he said it would not be his idyll.... No race should not matter, but parents of girls tend to cut off their hands and legs and send them off with the ruksathi. Sr. Jannah's and Sr Barr's advice has my support, pursue it to a point but it is pointless getting so attached that you cannot see the wood for the tree's. People tend to become infatuated with that which thay cannot have, and the forbidden is not always the best thing for them. If ones parents are dead set against the idea, if all arguments put forward in a gentle and kind manner are not given any heed, then bow to your parents will. If you give up something dear to you for the love of Allah your reward is with your creator Inshallah. Marriage is difficult enough, start the beginning of the rest of your lives with your parents blessings and Allahs pleasure. Wassalaam |
| 08/03/05 at 11:33:01 |
| Fozia |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| Hatice |
| 08/03/05 at 18:29:51 |
| [quote]Love is blind. To me, blindness is at it's worst state when it's a nafs-triggered "love". Where hardship looks easy, and red flags look green, where shahwah and hawa looks Islamic and pure.... and reality - blurred.[/quote] Is this a reply to me?!? What's the connection? Oh, sorry but I was shocked when I saw your sentences below a quote from me!.. If my words went wrong destination, I'm sorry. But I never said anything about "red flags". The "obstacles" which I mention are, the life itself and culture difference! And I can't get it, why "shahwah" is mentioned under the quote?... as if I show shahwah is "pure" and support it?!??? :o I just said what I have seen, and my thoughts. But both of them was about the couples, I didn't say anything about the parents' reaction. For "nafs-triggered love"... It's not what I'm talking about. Families are important, I agree. But families must be tolerant also, they mustn't say "no" just because of prejudice. If they are thinking the differences can be dangerous for the marriage, they're right. But it's wrong when they are acting like racist and refusing the marriage ONLY because of the skin colour!(I'm not saying one must rebel; I just say it's wrong, my thougt.) At last, they block their girl's/boy's happiness. Other than the parents, I think the culture/race/nation difference is not a blockage for lovers. And especially for religious people. But weird; what I have seen until now and my thought are opposite. Maybe I'm too positive. |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| haajirah |
| 08/04/05 at 02:40:11 |
| [slm] in south africa this seems to be a huge >:(problem that refuses to leave the community.For example: If an indian guy would like to marry one of us(Cape malay), most of the time his family would be dead against this decision...my friends father married a cape malay woman..and to this day my friends indian family dont mix with them!Wallah its sad....race shoulnt be a question at all. As long as you love your partner for the sake of Allah inshallah all will be well. [wlm] |
| Pride or prejudice: learning our lessons |
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| jannah |
| 08/10/05 at 21:45:45 |
| wlm, I did not know there were ethnic Malays living in South Africa! Its so interesting that there are so many different ethnic groups of Muslims there that are now established there over time. I hope the prejudices ease over time. Just read this article that is loosely related. Interestingly enough its from someone in Capetown! --------------------- Pride or prejudice: learning our lessons Shaikh Sadullah Khan Muslim Views, December 2003 Cape Town, South Africa We are instructed to reflect upon diversity (3:190) and draw valuable lessons from it. "Have you not seen how Allah sends down water from the sky? Therewith We then bring produce of diverse colours. And in the mountains are streaks white and red of diverse hues and pitch black. People too, and beasts and cattle are of diverse colours. Even so, only those of His servants who have understanding are truly dutiful to Allah" (35:2728). Early Islam History testifies to the openness Islam accorded to diversity from inception. In the first four people who embraced Islam, we have a crosssection of the entire society: Khadijah (woman, wife, and first believer), 'Ali (family member and youth), Abu Bakr (wealthy merchant and friend) and Zaid (foreigner and former slave). Amongst the companions of the Prophet Muhammad (saw) were Salman (Persian), Shu'aib (Greek), Bilal (Ethiopian) and his wife Maria, the Coptic (Egyptian). This bears testimony to the allembracing scope of Islam. Yet, prejudice persists in the ummah (global Muslim community) today. This problem manifests not only in small minority Muslim communities but also amongst Muslim majorities. Years of nationalism have diminished the powerful universality Islam brought to these societies. Muslim Lands Within numerous Muslim countries, the laws and social customs perpetuate racism and prejudice; for instance, discrimination excludes those who are not original inhabitants of the land from citizenship. Furthermore, workers of one national origin are paid less than others though they may excel in terms of skills, education and experience. The prejudice is bizarre. Muslim communities The Prophet Muhammad (saw) married across ethnic lines and, in Islam, there is no ethnic bar to marriage. Sadly, many Muslims justify their discriminatory attitude saying it is a measure to ensure compatibility between future spouses. Islamically it is inexcusable to discriminate based on ethnicity. The prejudice often goes beyond ethnicity and revolves around the assumed superiority of one over the other. A person is either a pious believer or a miserable sinner, and all human beings are the children of Adam. Masajid Even multinational neighbourhoods result in ethnically dominant masajid. People want to ensure that their mother tongue survives and their ‘culture’ prevails resulting in people outside of that culture becoming marginalized. Many seem unable to disassociate Islam as a universal civilisation from a cultural tradition they are accustomed to. Mosques are not meant to be cultural centres for the promotion of ethnicity or racism. We are warned that the mosque is dedicated for the sake of Allah and not towards anything other than Allah (72:18). Racism We find blatant racist statements and a large gap exists between Muslims of different ethnic backgrounds. Effective interaction and inter-marriage remain largely uncommon. This, despite the Prophet Muhammad’s (saw) final message, “O human beings! Acknowledge that your Creator is one, your forefather is one. Take note that there is no superiority of any Arab over any non-Arab, nor of any non-Arab over any Arab; neither is there any superiority of any white over any black person, nor of any black person over any white person; except by piety.” Human excellence “O humankind! We created you from a pair of a male and a female, made you into peoples, and organised communities, that you may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the estimation of Allah is the one most righteous” (49:13). This verse addresses all of humanity, not just Muslims. Muslims form part of the larger family of humanity. Allah says He created us from one pair, implying we are all from the same origin. It also means that all human beings are created through the same process – none are created with a better mechanism than others. “And among His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Verily, in that are indeed signs for those who know” (30:22). The only source of preference among human beings is not based on nationality, colour, gender or ethnicity, but on the criterion of preference, i.e. taqwa, which is not measurable by human beings. “Do not ascribe righteousness to yourself. Allah alone knows best who are pious” (53:32). This integral aspect of Islam still draws people to this way of life – not because of Muslims but in spite of them. Noted historian, Professor Toynbee, said in 1948, “The extinction of race-consciousness between Muslims is one of the outstanding achievements of Islam, and in the contemporary world there is a crying need for the propagation of this Islamic virtue.” Unity in salaah Globally, five times every day, Muslims of every cultural and ethnic background stand shoulder-to-shoulder, praying in the same manner, facing the same direction, reading from the same Quran. Congregational prayer is not just an exercise in Muslim unity, but also in ethno-national harmony manifesting supranational identity. ‘Allamah Muhammad Iqbal said, “What benefits or harms any of us as believers affects all of us as believers. We have one final Messenger, one way of life, one faith tradition, one qiblah, one Allah, one Quran … how great it would have been if all believers were one.” United in pain With headlines focused on the suffering of Muslims in Kashmir, Palestine, Chechnya, Somalia, Iraq… Muslims all feel the anguish, donate generously and pray for their oppressed brothers and sisters. The Prophet Muhammad (saw) said, “Believers are like one body, if any part is afflicted, the rest of the body suffers restlessness and fever.” Change We are each burdened with prejudices but it is never too late to renounce them, if we are prepared to remove the arrogance we harbour. The Prophet Muhammad (saw) said, “That person will not enter paradise who has a grain of kibr in his heart.” Surely, Allah does not judge by physical appearneces, rather He considers the sincerity of one’s heart and actions. On what basis can we then justify any of our prejudices? |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| haajirah |
| 08/12/05 at 03:01:34 |
| [slm] Cape malay refers to a race in south africa(more in Cape Town) of people who are generally mixed, mainly indonesian(javanese), Malaysian, Arab...Inshallah i hope to that this ethnic divisions come to an end. Ive realised that many of our girls have a self esteem issue due to the general perception of beauty here: fair..etc. With inter marriage, which we have done inthe past, inshallah racism can slowly be irradicated! [wlm] |
| Re: How important is race? |
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| haajirah |
| 08/12/05 at 03:05:58 |
| [slm] again..Sadullah khan is from my city, hes now working in the states .. a great scholar alhamdolillah. [wlm] |
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