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Female circumcision

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Female circumcision
Amelia
09/29/05 at 18:40:17
Asalaamu alaykum sisters...

I'm a UK medical student looking into female circumcision (which is banned in most cases in the UK). There have been a few studies suggesting that in some cases removal of the clitoral hood is beneficial to women who find it hard to orgasm. Obviously any technique which removes too much tissue is not healthy physically, psychologically or sexually - something confirmed by the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) when he advised not to cut too deeply.

Are there any sisters who have any (not necessarily personal) experience of the benefits of female circumcision? Circumcision rates in Egypt, for example, are given as over 90%.

Any views??

Jazakallahu khayran.

Re: Female circumcision
Fozia
09/30/05 at 07:42:26
[slm]


Male circumcision is advised, didn't personally think there was any sort of religious backing for female circumcision.

And no I dunno any female who has been.


Wassalaam
Re: Female circumcision
Amelia
09/30/05 at 13:34:04
Well, of course it depends where people get their info from, and there are people who take the view that all five characteristics of the fitrah apply equally to both men and women. but this thread's not to discuss which position applies!

the fact is that all over the world there are horrific cases of true mutilation, which no one would approve of. And this is sometimes 'justified' by major world religions by the fact that it reduces the libido of women. But medical 'circumcision' (removal of the female 'foreskin') is carried out for exactly the opposite reason.

I think it's an interesting subject because it has such extremes: everyone knows the dreadful consequences of barbaric infibulations etc... I'm trying to hear the other side of the story.

Apologies if I've offended anyone... tell me what you think...
Re: Female circumcision
jannah
09/30/05 at 15:36:44
slm,

This is a good article on the Islamic view on the subject: Is Female Circumcision Required  Dr. Jamal Badawi http://jannah.org/genderequity/equityappendix.html

basically it's not required
Re: Female circumcision
theOriginal
10/01/05 at 00:39:36
[slm]

When I was in university, I met a lot of sisters who related their horrific experiences of having had circumcision done when they were little.

Basically these were procedures which had gone wayyyy wayyyyy overboard -- I'm sorry but I can't relay their experiences in detail. We used to discuss the validity of this procedure (from an Islamic perspective), and what I gathered is that most sisters who have had it done (and had it gone "wrong"), believed that it was preferable to get it done.

Personally I don't know. Seeing the amount of suffering these girls went through, was absurd. Even when they had their periods for example, they'd be in so much pain, that it was hard to watch.  

On the other hand, there was a revert sister who's husband made her get it done after they got married. And she was a strong supporter of the procedure. I never asked for details since the whole topic makes me really squirmish.

Don't know if this helped.

Wasalaam.
10/01/05 at 00:41:39
theOriginal
Re: Female circumcision
Siham
10/09/05 at 00:17:07
[slm] Female Genital Mutilation (FGM)

The practice of clitoridectomy preceded the introduction of Islam in Arabia and in different parts of Africa. This results in severe sexual debilitation of women who cannot possibly achieve sexual fulfillment which is their right as Muslims. Therefore, this practice is totally un-Islamic because it is in direct violation of both Qur'an and hadith which clearly stress the importance of sexual satisfaction for both the husband and wife.

http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/positionpapers/fgm.html
Re: Female circumcision
Halima
10/09/05 at 08:20:42
Hmmmm.... Female circumcission is horrible and if I had girls, I wouldn't let them go through it.

However, contrary to popular belief, it does not reduce the libido of women!  Ask circuscissed women whose libidos are as normal as uncircumcissed women.  Therefore, luck of libido is just a mith.

Granted, there are women who experience lack of libido, problems during menusrations, etc.  This depends on the type of circumcission and the traditional circumsissor.  Some are experts and some are amateurs.  Any girl who is circumsissed by an amateur goes through HELL.  

Many countries and communities in Africa STILL practice it.  And some of them are not EVEN MUSLIMS.  It is all related to tradition rather than religion.

One un-refutable TRUTH - circumsissed women under go painful procedures during child birth.  Again, it depends on the kind of circumsisson.  Read the link jannah has provided on the types of circumssion.

Re: Female circumcision
Nistar
10/09/05 at 10:33:37
[slm]

I recently gave a lecture on Sexuality in Islam, and covered FGM. The only positive reports I found during my research were from the pro- side. Essentially arguing that removal of the clitoral hood can aid in sensation. Some argue that the complete removal of the clitoris forces the woman to redirect sensation to her vaginal muscles, which is argued, results in stronger orgasms.

As to whether or not supporters of this practise are a) female or b) supporters of the mildest form or circumcision -- who knows. The studies on the positives of FGM are overwhelmingly few. So more often than not, in my research I just came across a lot of rhetoric and not actual data. Particularly when it comes to complete removal, there are simply too many studies illustrating the psychological and physical scars, and health-related problems, to convince me that it could actually be a benefit.  Indeed, it is horrendous.

Interestingly, there is a (cultural) group that practises hymenectomy when the child is very young -- arguing that the pain is lessened when she engages in intercourse for the first time.  Which I am sure is also up to debate.

fee aman'Allah
10/09/05 at 10:38:08
Nistar
Re: Female circumcision
abdullahcohn
10/09/05 at 18:47:31
If I Followed Shafi fiqh I would have it done to my daughters. I am not shafi so wont.

If you want to know about it speak to Shafi people. East Africans, Yemanis and Malaysians.

Re: Female circumcision
jannah
10/10/05 at 00:47:53
slm,

i've only heard the horror stories as well, i can't find anyone who is pro-fgm again i'd like to see the proof if you are saying shafii fiqh recommends it.  whether it is "allowed" under circumstances and conditions is quite different from  "recommends"
Re: Female circumcision
Caraj
10/10/05 at 02:02:17
I've been reading this thread and sisters, I just cannot see the reason in this. Even the milder version where what they say just the hood is removed :(
Would that not lead ot major over sensativity during the monthly? During sex? Even against under garments?

Just seems like there was a reason Allah made us women the way he did.
and this Female circumcision is like saying Allah did not make a good enough design.
I'm not gonna even think that. no no
10/10/05 at 02:03:10
Caraj
Re: Female circumcision
jannah
10/10/05 at 02:19:55
What we're discussing here is a cultural practice, so I hope no one gets the idea that it is Islamically mandated or anything!!

Anyways yeah I find it rather replusive as well.

Re: Female circumcision
abdullahcohn
10/10/05 at 04:12:15
Cultural background
Female genital cutting is primarily a social practice, not a religious one. It is today a mainly African cultural practice. It crosses the lines of various religious groups. It is found among Muslims, Christians, African Jews and Animists. [12]

A number of reasons are put forward for the practice of FGC. These include the belief that it annuls or moderates sexual desires in women. It is also believed that it is more hygienic. Frequently the practice is associated with traditional initiation rites. Some believe religion justifies the practice.

In some cultures there exists the belief that a newborn child has elements of both sexes. In the male body the foreskin of the penis is considered to be the female element. In the female body the clitoris is considered to be the male element. Hence when the adolescent is reaching puberty, these elements are removed to make the indication of sex clear.

The operation is most often carried out by female practitioners. Thus it has been attributed by some authors to a deep-rooted fear of elder women that the more attractive younger women might seduce away their husbands and thus leave them without support.

Many Muslims believe that FGC is required by Islam. In fact, no form of genital modification and mutilation is mentioned in the Qur'an, but female circumcision is mentioned in several reliable hadiths[13]. Schools of Islamic law differ on whether the process is obligatory, recommended or permissibleGIF89am?gfg)mpd+'J?|M)馢ԑ1ٳ鴳YI3\gKhGEHӴ؛C͉CԮxau8)Va1άDbj=ª}6ɕdE*#- (:ճzw;((4!?,m@pH,Ȥrl:`JZجvzZ$aV&LhDPiBSux4np4qnkvoxwkk] egi_>h<<30 ##:(-&!$99!9 *3322=2>>=2fh: :8 6 (;` hC .\Gǎ{q$Ɏ=ڽP0E ۹3an@hXdlqFC2 Ւ>"G/&4@ր>Φe# &<0Wnл&XlpbE0JTȫU5T;>P1lA 50i51h弑u,\Ӫqo~Q(j s, 4`a6h9&6A ժՇE)0 Mҥ%so8/EVsy pVD3]S%uA`&GBxi<}$5"؛hǟaǡ/`s2g
A few others, like the Egyptian Mufti Sheikh Jad Al-Hqq 'Ali Jad Al-Hqq issued, in 1994, a fatwa stating: "Circumcision is mandatory for men and for women. If the people of any village decide to abandon it, the [village] imam must fight against them as if they had abandoned the call to prayer." [18] Al-Azhar University has issued fatwas in 1949, 1951 and 1981 which endorsed the practice. [Gad-al-hak: Khitan al banat, pp. 3119-3125, in Sami A. Aldeeb, Mutiler, Institut Suisse de Droit Compar, 1993, p. 191.]

It is also common among African Christians in some countries, and believed to be justified on religious grounds. For example, in Ethiopia some "Coptic Christian priests refuse to baptize girls who have not undergone one of the FGM procedure." [19]

taken from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_circumcision


------------------------------------------------

As i have said before, If you want to hear the other side of the story, speak to people from communities who practice it.
Re: Female circumcision
Siham
10/10/05 at 09:55:05
[slm] Well the procedure in the Shafi`i madhab is so that a slight tip of the clitoris skin is removed or as it known clitoral hood removal ( i.e. [i]sunna circumcision[/i] ) which is neither excision nor FGM or any other harmful practices for that matter, furthermore I dont think that Its even recommended per se.

And Allah SWT knows best,

wassalaam.
10/10/05 at 10:25:31
Siham
Re: Female circumcision
monamuslimah
10/11/05 at 15:17:41
Assalam alaikum wa'rahmatullahi wa'barakatuhu

:o I am not an expert on any of these topics. But I cannot believe that Allah SubHana Wa Ta`ala would condone such a practice.  :( I just cringe at the thought of a girl having to go through this. :'(

fi aman allah

:-) Mona :-)
Re: Female circumcision
abdullahcohn
10/12/05 at 06:23:52
His Prophet (pbh) condoned the Sunnah procedure, thats why it is called sunnah.

Well Most Muslims believe girls don't need to have it done, thats why most muslims don't have it done. The Shafis believe they have to have it done, so they get it done.

for Hanafis male circumcision is NOT farrad, for Shafis it is. The ones that say it is farrad don't make a distinction between male and female circumcion.
This difference is due to the differences in usul of the Ahl al Ra'i and the ahl al hadith.
So this difference goes to the very start of ISlam, it isn't going to disapear now.
When the Hanafis see a text "telling do an action" they take it as a request not a command unless there is another text explaining that it is farrad. When the Shafis see a text "telling to do an action" they take it as a command unless there is another text indication that it is not compulsery.

so this is why we all see the same text, and some of us say it is farrad while others say it is rewardable while the hanafis say it is allowable.

So if i was a shafi i would believe at the very least that it was a rewardable action.
What I would never believe, whatever my Madhad is that Sunnah Female Circumcision was Harram or even Mukruh, because our prophet pbh clearly allowed it. and no one disputes that.

Re: Female circumcision
jannah
10/12/05 at 09:21:52
slm,

i have to take exception to calling it a "sunnah", the prophet [saw] said if it was done to make sure to do it in a certain way so it does not hurt the woman. this does not make it something that is a legislative sunnah... ie if you do it, you get reward for it... it makes it something that is MUBAH - simply something out there that is permissible. again reliable scholars have said there are no authentic hadiths legislating it, this is a cultural practice that pre-dates islam and in this day and age it is more probably more harmful than beneficial.

Re: Female circumcision
Fozia
10/12/05 at 16:45:56
[quote author=abdullahcohn link=board=sis;num=1128030017;start=10#15 date=10/12/05 at 06:23:52]for Hanafis male circumcision is NOT farrad,
[/quote]


[slm]


Br. are you sure about this??

I'm of the Hanafi madhab, and most people I know are too, all their boys have been circumcised, and not just because it's something to do to your newborns. But specifically because it is considered fard......

I remember my husband telling me of a family in India who all baceme Muslim, all the boys in the family were circumcised...including the father :o

I think the main point here, is that circumcising a boy does not have any negative effects on his health, whereas FGM does.


Wassalaam
10/12/05 at 16:48:53
Fozia
Re: Female circumcision
abdullahcohn
10/13/05 at 12:50:39
Yes it is not farrad in the Hanafi Madhab.
The reason why every one has it done is because it is mundub.
According to the Hanafi Mudhad not only wasn't it farrad for your husbands friend to have it done, but he done a harram by having it done, unless it was done by himself or his wife.
This is due to adult Muslims not being allowed to show their parts to people other then their spouses, except in medical emergencies.

There are a few things that are not farrad/Harram in the Hanafi Mudhad but are in others.
this is because the Hanafis regard a command as not obligatory unless their is text showing that it is while the Shafi and Hanbali view a command as binding unless there is a text showing that it isn't.

Jannah your statement about their not being authentic hadith proving it to be abligatory applies to the ahl ra'i and not the ahl hadith.
When their aren't enough athentic Hadith on an Issue Hanafis use qius before using Daif hadith, but the Ahl Hadith use daif hadith before they use qius.
Jannah you are right that their are many scholers who say it isn't farrad. I will add to that and say the majority of Scholers say it isn't Farrad. this is because the majority of Muslims are Hanafi. So the Majority of Scholers are Hanafi. Add to that the other Madhabs who don't say it is farrad and you have a bigger majority.
But no matter how big the majority the Shafi madhab is still the second biggest Madhab. Indonisia is still the largest Muslim Country.  And the 'The Reliance of the Traveller' is still one of the most respected and oldest Islamic books. male circumcision also predates Islam and is a practice of many non-Muslims.

As I have said before, speak to Shafis about this. I am not one so I shouldn;t really be talking about it.





Re: Female circumcision
Siham
10/13/05 at 13:17:42
Circumcision

Answered by Shaykh Abu Usamah

What is the Fiqh ruling on circumcision for converts to Islam? Is there a difference of opinion in the Madhabs? Please give some Fazail and Hadith.

Al-Salam alaykum

According to the Hanafi school it is a confirmed sunna (sunna muakkada) for circumcision to be performed for a new born [male] as well as a person who accepts Islam .According to other schools it is wajib.(Raddal-Muhtarv.7 p.342 Dar al-Fikr1995)

Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) said: "The practices related to Fitrah (natural human ways) are five: Circumcision, shaving the pubic hair, trimming the moustache, pairing the nails and removing the hair of the armpits." - Sahih al-Bukhari

Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) said: "Circumcision is Sunnah for men and an honour for women" - Musnad Ahmad, Al-Bayhaqi

Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) also said: "Whoever accepts Islam should have his circumcision performed." - Talkhis al-Habir

In one hadith in Musnad Ahmad the words "get rid of the hair of disbelief and perform circumcision" have been recorded.

The practice of circumcision is one of the salient features (sha`a'ir) of the religion of Islam. It is from amongst those things that Rasulullah(sallallahu alayhi wasallam) encouraged his ummah to follow the way (millah) of Hadrat Ibrahim (alayhis salam) in. Hadrat Ibrahim (alayhis salam) was the first person to be circumcised at the age of 80.(Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim)

Besides the above, circumcision also carries numerous physical benefits .It also prevents many illnesses.

Furthermore circumcision is an important aspect of taharah (cleanliness), which is so strongly emphasised in Islam, for when the foreskin is not removed, urine and other secretions can collect under the folded skin. This area can become the site of very painful infections from bacterial growth and the minor operation of circumcision greatly simplifies basic hygiene for men and boys. "Indeed God loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure" - Qur'an Surah al-Baqarah

Hence it is a greatly meritorious sunnah as well as physically beneficial to perform this act. However it is not a pre-requisite for conversion to Islam.

And Allah Ta`ala Knows Best.

Abu Usamah
10/13/05 at 13:20:23
Siham
Re: Female circumcision
monamuslimah
10/13/05 at 16:46:48
Assalam alaikum wa'rahmatullahi wa'barakatuhu

Jazak allahu khair for the clarification :)  

I was wondering if I could ask some additional questions.  Is the maliki school of the same opinion?  :-/  

Also, it was clear that circumcision was sunnah for men.  Does it mean that an honor for women means that one should submit to that?  :'(

fi aman allah

:-)Mona :-)
Re: Female circumcision
Siham
10/13/05 at 21:14:59
[slm] Well sis, usually egyptians practice the sunna circumcision (i.e clitoridotomy) -- who obviously follow the Shafi' madhab so as I mentioned in my previous post this type of procedure is not so severe/harmful as it is with excision and FGM. And according to the majority of the scholars all hadiths concerning female circumcision are non-authentic.

wassalaam.
10/13/05 at 21:16:08
Siham


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